Taliban/Al-Quaida: The end is near!

The Taliban is crumbling, and Bin-Laden is trying to hold it together,supposedly taking control himself. The Talibans army is desintegrating, abandoning its positions. The Northern Aliance has captured many Taliban controlled cities and has agreed to a provisional government with the US and UK once Kabul is secured.

Its all falling down for Al-Quaida, and its sick, deranged leader. I would not be surprised to see the end in a few more weeks, if the pressure is kept up.

Thank you to all people in uniform, from all countries, on this anniversary of another, long ago war. The support for the United States in this dark time has been uplifting.

Lets hope it ends soon, and with finality. I cant wait for the day when they drag that sick bastard in front of the cameras, dead or alive, and Al-Quaida is reduced to ashes.

Also, let us not forget to lend a helping hand to the tough NA fighters who are doing the dirtiest work on the ground, when this is over. Afghanistan will need our help for a long time to come, and we should be there for them.

Hurraahhhh!!!!
Hurraahhhh!!!!
Hurraahhhh!!!!
[dance]

Is this true? In that case, this will be great news. Then let's move on to other terrorist issues. Like other terrorist groups around the world and also the religious madrasahs in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan bringing up a whole generation of haters.

Lets not do things too overhastely. What some people see as terrosrism others may find its not.
There is no thin line, to say he is a terrorist and he is not. Ofcourse throwing airplanes at buildings, is obvious.

I think a change of international policy should do very good to make people in the middle east less hostile towards the west and especially the US.
Preventing terrorism is better than fighting it.

It gladdens me to see the forces of justice, good and right triumphing over those of the evil one. I heartily endorse what joe said, and add that this means "all over red rover" for those who deal out terror everywhere. I look forward to that day, soon hopefully, when OBL and those responsible are taken out, bought to account, and bayonetted up the jacksey on international television. Where is Vlad the Impaler when he is needed?

Dont start celebrating too early, many things can still happen. But I wanted to point out that the coalition has them on the run, and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

In spite of the plane crash in NY today (early speculation that it was mechanical), the pressure is getting to ole Osama. He is lashing out at the other Arab nations in desparation. Sounds like Hitler in his bunker in the final days...

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
It gladdens me to see the forces of justice, good and right triumphing over those of the evil one.

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I hope you realize that this statement means nothing.

The Afghans and Muslims see it as the Evil Western force destroying their good and holy countries and destroying their ideal way of life. We are the evil ones. Anyone who tries to forceable change ones way of life is evil....and that's what WE are trying to do.

No.....Afghans and Muslims aren't the Evil ones....WE are.

Now....granted they declared a holy war on the Western World. Do you know why?? Because we are trying to change the very fabric of their being and way of life. Although I think their way of life is incorrect, it's not my place to tell them what to do. All you can do is offer assistance (which was rejected), and that's all you can do. They will work through it.....or destroy themselves. But by forcing it upon them, we have created a new enemy. And we are the evil ones, and we will pay.

Of course the Victor always writes the history book, so they will be declared wrong (should we previal), and Westerners will be happy. And that's all that really matters right??? Happiness.

No.. Cornmaster, people that plot death & destruction to gain their ends ( OBL & Al-Queda ) are inherently evil.

Aside from Kabul, perhaps Kandahar, and hunting down the die-hards, if the Northern Alliance victories holds, the military phase of this thing look to be ending. If that is true, what follows is even more difficult.. the political phase. This is where the media & the public is likely to lose interest & take their eyes off the ball. If so the military gains could easily be nullified & in a couple of years, we are right back to square one.

I look to see OBL's head to be delivered to us in a burlap bag as a "peace offering". That much at least will be accomplished.

Dog

Originally posted by Dogberry
No.. Cornmaster, people that plot death & destruction to gain their ends ( OBL & Al-Queda ) are inherently evil.

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And what are we doing?? Each day we plot attacks on Taliban to kill off it's military. Last night I saw something on CNN about targetting civilian cave dwellings!! We do all of this to accomplish one thing. Dislodge a government and "terriost" organization that we disagree with.

Under our OWN definitions of freedom, liberty, right to practise religion, etc....WE ARE WRONG! And WE ARE EVIL! If the government tried to say that no one could practise your religion in the US anymore, there would be a HUGE uproar. The thing is, the government can make statements like that in our country, no one would stand for it, but we elected them, now they rules us. What right does OUR elected government have to tell Afghans how to live their lives?? None at all.

If the Muslims tried to come over here and change OUR way of life (forcable) then I would be all for these attacks. But they DIDN'T. We are the ones attacking their way of life, LONG before they attacked the Western world! Crusades?? Anyone remember them. Even from that long ago.

Although I will be happy when it's all over, WE are in the wrong, and I'm just trying to open people's eyes here....

And Dog, what happened to your account....you only have 1 post!!

between what we are doing & what Al-Quida did to us, I don't know what to say to you. I admire your
pacifist leanings tho...it is simply that we cannot let terror attacks direct our policies, nor can we afford to respond in a passive way to them.

My browser is Net 6.1 & does not work very well on this board. Also my Win 98 SE is getting long in the tooth.. having been on the machine for over a year now without a reinstall. Probably getting unstable. TF & I worked on the problem.. yesterday a little.

The question of morality between groups & nation-states is a whole other topic. My contention is that a strong effective response under the right circumstances will limit the bloodshed & destruction for everybody over the course of time. Otherwise, inevitably, we give into rule & ruin by despots.

Dog

Originally posted by CornMaster

LONG before they attacked the Western world! Crusades?? Anyone remember them. Even from that long ago.

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BUZZZ: total failure of logic and memory.

Sorry Corn, Islam did not even exist until the 600s AD. All Muslim lands were taken by conquest from Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Budhist, and others. They attacked the West (Christian or otherwise, irrelevant) to gain the middle east, the balkans, & North Africa. Not that that is more more relevant to the modern situation than your ridiculous suggestion that the crusades might be.
As for pacifism , its soulmate is slavery.

Cornmaster: "And what are we doing?? Each day we plot attacks on Taliban to kill off it's military."

Killing military and killing civilians are two different things. If you'd ever been in a war you'd know that killing enemy military is necessary--unless you want to be killed yourself.

"We do all of this to accomplish one thing. Dislodge a government and "terriost" organization that we disagree with."

Not just "disagree with", but one who is our sworn enemy, who has killed thousands of our people and have threatened to take more in future acts. I'd say we have no choice in that case BUT to eradicate them, wouldn't you?

"Under our OWN definitions of freedom, liberty, right to practise religion, etc....WE ARE WRONG! And WE ARE EVIL!"

Please explain. Liberty by its very nature must be defended violently sometimes, when it is threatened. I.e. the right to go to work in an office building without it being knocked down by a flaming 767....

"If the government tried to say that no one could practise your religion in the US anymore, there would be a HUGE uproar. The thing is, the government can make statements like that in our country, no one would stand for it, but we elected them, now they rules us. What right does OUR elected government have to tell Afghans how to live their lives?? None at all."

WHEN have we ever told the Afghanis that they cannot practice Islam?!?

Yes, people in the US have a right to practice the religion of their choice--so long as the practice doesn't include violence. I.e. the Aryan Nations can believe and practice their twisted form of Christianity, but if they injure, kill, conspire against, or terrorize anyone, THEN they WILL face prosecution--which could even include military action if they violently resist arrest. And I assume you believe in the rule of law, therefore you would support this.

What we're doing in Afghanistan really isn't all that different. There is a profound difference between practicing one's religion peacefully, and killing or threatening people.

"If the Muslims tried to come over here and change OUR way of life (forcable) then I would be all for these attacks. But they DIDN'T. We are the ones attacking their way of life,"

So flying planes into buildings falls under the sanctity of their "way of life"?!? Whatever....

"LONG before they attacked the Western world! Crusades?? Anyone remember them. Even from that long ago."

This has NOTHING to do with the Crusades. Before September 11, were we doing, or even contemplating doing, anything military-wise in Afghanistan? No. We launched a few cruise missiles at Al Qaeda positions after the embassy bombings, but then pretty much left them alone to hatch yet another plot against us.... I'd say we were a bit TOO lenient by not nipping this organization right in the bud.

This military action is clearly only in response to the September 11 attack. You can attach all the conspiracy theories and whatnot you want to our actions in Afghanistan, but simply put: before September 11, no war. After September 11, WAR. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out WHY we are fighting the war now, does it?

And if it were the CN tower or some prominent skyscrapers in Toronto that were hit, I would HOPE you'd be saying something different....

"Although I will be happy when it's all over, WE are in the wrong, and I'm just trying to open people's eyes here...."

Well, as you "open my eyes", be sure to plug my nose--it's getting pretty deep in here....

If the government tried to say that no one could practise your religion in the US anymore, there would be a HUGE uproar.

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No one has told the Afghans they can't practice their religion. You are falling to victim to Taliban propaganda that would paint this as a religious war.

We do all of this to accomplish one thing. Dislodge a government and "terriost" organization that we disagree with.

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An odd way to characterize attempts to catch the murderers of some 4000+ people.

What right does OUR elected government have to tell Afghans how to live their lives??

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The last I knew murder was a crime. And harboring and protecting murderers is a crime. Or does living abroad and having lots of guns confer immunity on murderers?

I guess I don't come to Off topic often enough. Tough to believe anyone could be this naive, this steeped in moral relativism.

Originally posted by Dogberry
between what we are doing & what Al-Quida did to us, I don't know what to say to you. I admire your
pacifist leanings tho...it is simply that we cannot let terror attacks direct our policies, nor can we afford to respond in a passive way to them.

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I'm not saying we do nothing, we have to or we will die. I'm just trying to show people that we are the agressors and we brought it on ourselves. For hundreds of years these people have been oppressed by Western Powers.

I want people to understand that the Sept. 11 attacks WERE NOT unprovoked and instead were a biuld up of hundreds of years of oppression and critizism.

I'm not saying whatthey did was right, I'm saying what we are doing (and have been doing) is wrong.

Maybe I watch too much Star Trek, but the Prime Directive would have us NOT interfering with the normal evolution of a people. But then again....this isn't the Star Trek universe.

I have no idea what "persecution" the United States has unleashed against Afghanistan.

In 1979, the USSR brutally invaded and occupied that country. When I say brutal, I mean it. The Soviets did things to the Afghans that would shrivel your socks.

The US, through the CIA, trained and armed the Afghani resistance for years, to help repel an inhuman aggressor. Partly because it was in our strategic interest, partly to return the favor for VietNam and partly to help innocent people being slaughtered like cattle.

If any country in modern times, besides Kuwait, has been helped more by the US in time of war, I dont know what it is. I dont expect their gratitude, they did all the hard work. In fact, many attribute the fall of the Soviet Empire to the loss they suffered at the hands of the Afghans. So we did a little, important part.

The US gives out ALOT of foriegn aid. The Afghanistanis #1 source of food and medicine (before and after Sept 11) was from the US. We feed more Afghans than their own, evil, murdering, twisted government.

And again, we are not at war with Afghans, just the "foreigners" that rule and hide in their land.

I fail to see the "oppression".

Ok...forget everything I said about Religion.....you guys are taking it out of context and I'm too fustrated to try and explain it to you.

Now Allan... you quoted me in saying: "And what are we doing?? Each day we plot attacks on Taliban to kill off it's military." and replied by saying: "Killing military and killing civilians are two different things. If you'd ever been in a war you'd know that killing enemy military is necessary--unless you want to be killed yourself. "

You didn't take my full quote about attacking the civilian in cave dwellings did you?? Naughty...twisting my words.

I said "Under our OWN definitions of freedom, liberty, right to practise religion, etc....WE ARE WRONG! And WE ARE EVIL!" you replied "Please explain. Liberty by its very nature must be defended violently sometimes, when it is threatened. I.e. the right to go to work in an office building without it being knocked down by a flaming 767.... "

They are defending their liberty but attacking us, we are defending our liberty by attacking them. I don't see two sides of a coin.....I see the same side. It's ok to bomb them because they bombed us. Hummm.....maybe if we tried to get to the ROOT of the problem instead of destroying them.....but anyway....I've said that before. And we have come WAY to far for that to work.

I said "If the Muslims tried to come over here and change OUR way of life (forcable) then I would be all for these attacks. But they DIDN'T. We are the ones attacking their way of life," you replied "So flying planes into buildings falls under the sanctity of their "way of life"?!? Whatever.... "

That is taken so badly out of context....ahhhh....it's funny sometimes. Their action was one of war, not religion or way of life...how can you interept it that way?? Or think that I did?? I'm not that far gone am I.

In conclusion: The attacks must continue because the situation has degraded so far that nothing else will work. I'm trying to say that we (western world) have provoked the attacks (not just Sept. 11th) because of years and years of oppression. Granted, they tend to twist the actions of the west to fuel the hatred, but it must be founded in an action of our that people are overlooking.

Now....It obvious to a child that we are trying to destroy the Talabian gov't in Afghanstan. If anyone says it's all about terriosm, they have a blind eye to the real action. If it was just about getting BinLaden we would have sent in a half a dozen spies or special forces to assinate him and be done, not bomb the cities into oblivion. As well as destroy the government. This went from a war on terriosm to a war on the military gov't of Afghanstan and terriosm.

Corn, in an earlier post, you said that The Taliban and Al-Qaeda disagree with us.
So they disagree with us so they fly 2 planes into the WTC, 1 into the pentagon and another into the ground which was due to the passengers getting billy on them.
What in the **** are you talking about, disagreeing?
i've got something for Osama and the Taliban

Cornmaster, thanks for your clarification--I see I'm not the only one who misunderstood you, btw, so be more careful.... Now to respond:

"I'm not saying we do nothing, we have to or we will die. I'm just trying to show people that we are the agressors and we brought it on ourselves. For hundreds of years these people have been oppressed by Western Powers."

It's easy to make blanket statements like that. Harder to provide specific examples. Care to oblige? Sure, the US and the USSR have interfered in countries all over the world during their Cold War maneuvering, and that is inexcusable, but that didn't happen "for hundreds of years," and at any rate didn't really make things any worse than they already were. Indeed before WWI, most of the Middle East was under the Ottoman Sultan's rule or other local rule, with the exception of Pakistan (British). Indeed for hundreds of years we pretty much left them alone. And ever SINCE the Crusades, there certainly was never any talk of forcibly converting Muslims anywhere.

(And like Lefty said, we BOTH were aggressors during that period--the Muslims conquered lands of other faiths first, then the Church later conquered Muslim lands after their control by Muslims was established--but the Muslims were still conquering, hence all that Moorish architecture in Spain among other things. NEITHER side was lily-white, was it?)

"I want people to understand that the Sept. 11 attacks WERE NOT unprovoked and instead were a biuld up of hundreds of years of oppression and critizism."

Yes it was unprovoked, because the end never justifies the means--and all religions (including Islam) understand that. I.e. only violence can be called "provocative" of violence, and the Gulf War (which was called forth BY THE UN in response to aggression against Kuwait) hardly qualifies, since it was fought to preserve the right to self-determination of a weaker state (UN doctrine, accepted by all signatory members including Iraq) and was thus enforcing international law--which most of the other Arab states, including bin Laden's home of Saudi, helped uphold.

We in the West have NEVER since the Crusades (which I explained above) ever even tried to deny Muslims in the Middle East (or anywhere) their right to practice their religion--I challenge you to find even ONE time where the West did--whereas in many of those countries Christians and other minority religions HAVE been persecuted from time to time.

The West hasn't been ruled by intolerant fundamentalist-types since the Middle Ages, and so we've been a pretty tolerant lot religion-wise ever since. We've had no war against Islam, and we still do not. Nor do we really care about their way of life, so long as it is not violent against us.

"I'm not saying whatthey did was right, I'm saying what we are doing (and have been doing) is wrong."

Clarify. Please.

As for the ST universe "prime directive", that was in regard to different alien races who had not achieved warp technology. It did not apply to trade and interaction among human beings. Don't ALL human beings have a right to try to pursue the benefits of human technology peacefully, therefore to buy what we sell? Or MUST some be kept "backward" until "their time"? What is it you are trying to say here?

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola

As for pacifism , its soulmate is slavery.

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Sorry, Lefty .. could not disagree with you more, pacifistic .. or rather non-violent means are always the best if they are appropriate to the situation. For an example of appropriate & non-appropriate.. think back to the results of the Tianamen Massacre vs. what happened all over Eastern Europe just a few months afterward. The best thing about non-violent means, again if appropriate .. is that it does not leave the taint of blood hatred that violence does. It all depends on who you are dealing with...in this case, it is with violent, unscruplous & delusional people so non-violent means are not a real option.

Yes .. Corn, this is not the Star Trek Universe & we happen to be stuck on the same planet as these people. I think somewhere along the way, somebody filled your mind with too many narrow leftist style notions. As I have told so many Right-Wingers... you need to broaden your approach to things. Your history is extremely one-sided.

Dog

As for the civilian cave dwellings, CornMaster, I haven't heard about them so I couldn't respond. I also suspect no one (not even the big news agencies) knows exactly what is REALLY going on there either, and we'll only know (or have hard evidence) afterwards. I DO know that it is not US military policy to target civilians--so perhaps something else was in those caves too? Some of our enemies in the past have been known, after all, to use "human shields" precisely because they know how much Western people disdain the killing of civilians.

I left that out too because I was focusing on your argument that stated: "And what are we doing?? Each day we plot attacks on Taliban to kill off it's military." It seemed you had a problem with that, too....