Emp.Napoleon
SUPER EMP!
There has been much talk about stoping diplomoncy untill C3B says sorry for their "unfair" deals. Some think we should stop untill they promise not to suggest such "unfair" deals.
C3B POLL: Stop relations until they say sorry?
- Thread starter Emp.Napoleon
- Start date
Emp.Napoleon
SUPER EMP!
Ankka said:Now where's the poll?
Right here
I voted for just telling them. Maybe they did not know how much it would insult us. I want good relations and they do too. We can just tell them not to do such a thing again and thery probaly wount.
Apologies won't do any good. But if you explain to them how ridiculous the proposal was they won't do it again.
Don't stop talks, just reject all their proposals because of the proposals are unacceptable. Leave them the option to re-propose better deals. Talking isn't bad, but we have nothing to say about their current proposals.
Cheetah
Deity
In case the discussion continues here, I'm just dubbleposting this.
Emp. asked me to give some points I think he should talk about when we meet C3B.
--------
Sure. Now, using Matrix's model as a base:
1. What do we need to talk about?
DMZ (a) and exploration. Both over land (b) and water (c).
2. What can we gain and what can we give away?
a)
The latest DMZ proposal from C3B has not been accepted by most of us as I have understood it. Of course I too want to get as much as possible from any deal, but when I count tiles in this last proposal I get to 10 tiles each way, yet I hear people say it is shorter to our capital than to theirs. Is there something I'm missing?
The higher we can press the DMZ the better. But I don't know how we can do that at this time.
b)
If we go by Matrix's idea to only get peace and no entry into cultural borders, we can block our choke and explore their land. But I expect that their response to such a situation will be hostile. If they are not ready for a war in some time, this could be used as a pressure to make them accept some DMZ more in favor for us. If they are ready for a war, this can bring the war even faster.
c)
As of turn 50, we can have Writing in 12 or less turns. This means we can finish Map Making in 30 turns or less from now on. And the other landmass does look like a small island for me, but for every passing turn we'll see it clearer. If we time things correctly we can have our first city there in less than 35 turns. It will take a C3B Curragh at least 20 turns to get to this landmass if it starts now, which it won't. In 18 turns or so we can have a Curragh outside their (probably secondly built) city on the east coast.
I'm not sure of the value for them of seeing our island(?), but I sure would like to see their coast! Could someone like Matrix, who is against the Curragh deal, tell me why they would gain more than us?
3. Where lies the danger?
a)
The only danger with the DMZ would be if they somehow get way more land than us, or the DMZ is closer to our borders than theirs. Don't think there is a lot of traps and dangers to find here.
b)
If we don't get any treaty on land exploration it would be their loss, as we can block the choke and explore their lands. But that may lead to war, and a to early war at that.
c)
The real, enourmous danger with sea exploration is if we meet someone to our west. Then we would not be able to keep them secret from C3B, who will also meet them, though a bit later than us.
But we can also meet someone if C3B has met someone up north!
4. How can we make our demands look as fair as possible?
What we could do is to try and play on the worker-demand and pressure them a bit with that.
Before we can talk to much about how we can make our demands look fair, we need to decide what we want to demand.
And a little draft to what we could say to them:
Ok, it turned into a letter which we would have to send at least 36 hours before the meeting I think. But you get the idea. What do you think?
Emp. asked me to give some points I think he should talk about when we meet C3B.
--------
Sure. Now, using Matrix's model as a base:
1. What do we need to talk about?
DMZ (a) and exploration. Both over land (b) and water (c).
2. What can we gain and what can we give away?
a)
The latest DMZ proposal from C3B has not been accepted by most of us as I have understood it. Of course I too want to get as much as possible from any deal, but when I count tiles in this last proposal I get to 10 tiles each way, yet I hear people say it is shorter to our capital than to theirs. Is there something I'm missing?
The higher we can press the DMZ the better. But I don't know how we can do that at this time.
b)
If we go by Matrix's idea to only get peace and no entry into cultural borders, we can block our choke and explore their land. But I expect that their response to such a situation will be hostile. If they are not ready for a war in some time, this could be used as a pressure to make them accept some DMZ more in favor for us. If they are ready for a war, this can bring the war even faster.
c)
As of turn 50, we can have Writing in 12 or less turns. This means we can finish Map Making in 30 turns or less from now on. And the other landmass does look like a small island for me, but for every passing turn we'll see it clearer. If we time things correctly we can have our first city there in less than 35 turns. It will take a C3B Curragh at least 20 turns to get to this landmass if it starts now, which it won't. In 18 turns or so we can have a Curragh outside their (probably secondly built) city on the east coast.
I'm not sure of the value for them of seeing our island(?), but I sure would like to see their coast! Could someone like Matrix, who is against the Curragh deal, tell me why they would gain more than us?
3. Where lies the danger?
a)
The only danger with the DMZ would be if they somehow get way more land than us, or the DMZ is closer to our borders than theirs. Don't think there is a lot of traps and dangers to find here.
b)
If we don't get any treaty on land exploration it would be their loss, as we can block the choke and explore their lands. But that may lead to war, and a to early war at that.
c)
The real, enourmous danger with sea exploration is if we meet someone to our west. Then we would not be able to keep them secret from C3B, who will also meet them, though a bit later than us.
But we can also meet someone if C3B has met someone up north!
4. How can we make our demands look as fair as possible?
What we could do is to try and play on the worker-demand and pressure them a bit with that.
Before we can talk to much about how we can make our demands look fair, we need to decide what we want to demand.
And a little draft to what we could say to them:
Ok, it turned into a letter which we would have to send at least 36 hours before the meeting I think. But you get the idea. What do you think?
Wow! 
I'm suddenly a lot less disappointed that I didn't become president!
As for my 'model': I'm really flattered you use it!
Now about the contents:
a. Looking at the proposed De-Militarized Zone I actually don't think it's that bad. That is, if we really need to have a DMZ. But they've got the mountain, we have the hills. We can't expect any better defense by land than that!
b. Then I stay with my proposal as they will certainly not be ready for war yet. It would be a waste of production in this yet crucial expansion phase to have more than one or two immortals. On this subject it is very important to make it look fair! And since this is a basic code of behavior I don't see why it should be a problem. (This is what I've been saying ever since we let them past our land bridge blockade.)
c. Right now they don't know we're on such small peninsula. I expect their space to be much bigger, which is less interesting. Secondly, as you already said yourself: who knows who's out there. There must be someone out there within curragh-reach even; I'm sure of that. After all, they're close to the Northpole, while we're sailing around the equator.
Your letter to them is very nice! Only you do ask for an apology which is not a good idea in my and the general opinion (according to the poll).
I'm suddenly a lot less disappointed that I didn't become president!
As for my 'model': I'm really flattered you use it!
Now about the contents:
a. Looking at the proposed De-Militarized Zone I actually don't think it's that bad. That is, if we really need to have a DMZ. But they've got the mountain, we have the hills. We can't expect any better defense by land than that!
b. Then I stay with my proposal as they will certainly not be ready for war yet. It would be a waste of production in this yet crucial expansion phase to have more than one or two immortals. On this subject it is very important to make it look fair! And since this is a basic code of behavior I don't see why it should be a problem. (This is what I've been saying ever since we let them past our land bridge blockade.)
c. Right now they don't know we're on such small peninsula. I expect their space to be much bigger, which is less interesting. Secondly, as you already said yourself: who knows who's out there. There must be someone out there within curragh-reach even; I'm sure of that. After all, they're close to the Northpole, while we're sailing around the equator.
Your letter to them is very nice! Only you do ask for an apology which is not a good idea in my and the general opinion (according to the poll).
magnusmarcus
Prince
Matrix said:
There is no way they are going to apologize. We would never and I'm damn sure they won't. It would just further damage communication with c3b.
Cheetah
Deity
But we need some kind of proposal before I send this. And I would like to send this in about 12-18 hours or so, so they have some time to talk about this.
Cheetah suggested I make a suggestion for a letter, so here it is.
RegentMan
Deity
Nice touch with the whole iron paragraph. Do you think they'll see through it?
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
I like it way much!
Emp.Napoleon
SUPER EMP!
I think both are great. But Cheetah is a little bit more polite, and Matrix's is a little more to the point. I don't care witch one I present (since they are both good) so tell me witch one, Mr. Minister of Internal Affairs.
akots
Poet
The goal of this whole diplo is to postpone war between our team and C3B and try to avoid it completely. One something serves this goal, it is a good move. IMHO, suggestions by our newly elected President is reasonable and expressed in a polite and constructive manner overall. Minisry of Defense supports it in general but may be more discussion is appropriate.
I would be unable to attend the chat on Saturday. Please excuse me, I'm leaving to Florida with the family for a week. Taking laptop with me and will try to check the threads on the road.
I would be unable to attend the chat on Saturday. Please excuse me, I'm leaving to Florida with the family for a week. Taking laptop with me and will try to check the threads on the road.
Indeed. One of my flaws is that I can't 'wrap' my issues in nice-looking diplomatic sentenses. I just say what I want to say.Ankka said:I like both letters very much, Cheetah's maybe a bit more nicely worded, but if you combine them both, it will be great.
Perhaps Cheetah can combine our letters, and add what I said with his words. That iron thingy is good, if I may say so, and to ask "will they fall for that?" is irrelevant, because it's just the truth! Something that is true is easy to defend.
I would never put in the line about the iron, it is so easily seen through. It in fact confirms to them we have no Iron.
No, no, no!
1. "If that were the case" means anything's possible. I didn't make this example because we don't have iron; I would've made it in any case.
2. There's nothing to "see through" as it's just a fact! You tell me then where this comparison fails, besides that it is not equally important? (That doesn't matter because it's an example.)
1. "If that were the case" means anything's possible. I didn't make this example because we don't have iron; I would've made it in any case.
2. There's nothing to "see through" as it's just a fact! You tell me then where this comparison fails, besides that it is not equally important? (That doesn't matter because it's an example.)
Cheetah
Deity
I'll try to combine them in an hour or so, but just one thing: If Iron might be a problem, why don't we use horses, incense or some other resource as an example?
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