Un, Diplomacy, and Spies.....................oh My!

This is long but that is because I have really thought this out... so the idea is refined and focused... So please bare with it cause there are some great ideas in here even if you dont agree over all.

1. League of Nations/United Nations-- The Great Wonder “League of Nations” is formed at the tech of Nationalism near the beginning of the industrial era (not totally realistic but in game mechanics/play it fits.)

• A. Upon founding, all other civs are asked if they would like to join. The decision is solely for each civ but will have real advantages and disadvantages.
  • 1. If the civ declines, at each meeting of the LoN/UN he will be able to petition to join. (see D.2 below)
  B. All votes are visible and each country can vote Yes, No or Abstain.
  • 1. The Founder has the swing vote or tie breaker.
  C. Upon a majority of civs reaching the modern age, the LoN is renamed The United Nations.
  • 1. LoN meets every 20 turns and costs 1 gold per turn per civ
    2. UN meets every 10 turns and costs 3 gold per turn per civ
  D. Two turns before each meeting of the LoN/UN civs will be asked if they want to bring a vote. One turn before the meeting, each civ will receive an agenda of what will be voted on.
  • 1.Upon receiving the agenda you will be able to look at a page with each civ and his feelings about a vote. Heavily against, against, no preference/unknown/abstain, support, heavily support. This will help you gage where the table is at and who is open to negotiation. Only civs that you have an embassy in will be listed. Your ability to negotiate deals successfully will have to do with your past actions, government type, the level of the civs desire for a law etc.
    2. Non-member civs may petition to join the LoN/UN. Two turns before the vote all non-member civs will be asked if they would like join. They will need a ½ majority vote to enter and do not have a vote. Diplomatic standing, breaking of treaties, atrocities performed, etc will influence each countries vote. Though they will be able to negotiate under the table to try to bribe there way in.
    3. Member civs will have the opportunity to present international laws to the body. When a new tech is discovered that has a law associated with it, that civ will have to right in the next round of meetings, to present that law to the body. Laws will need ½ or a 2/3 majority to pass. If that civ does not present it, the next civ to discover the corresponding tech then has the right to call for a vote. Each law only effects member nations, so joining or not joining is a serious decision.
    • a. Anti-Slavery- Outlaws people rushing
      b. Geneva Convention- Outlaws Assassination (see section on spies second post in thread) and outlaws torture of spies (to gain the identity of the spies civ.)
      c. Anti-Nuclear Proliferation- Limits the number of nukes one country can have.
      d. ICBM Ban- No Nukes
      e. Kyoto Protocol- Limits factory output to curtail Green House effect. Computer calculates amount of pollution world wide and then resets factory output to balance effect. Normally factories are at 50%. After passing could reset factories to 40%. This only affects member nations. This will seriously push members to use eco-friendly improvements
      f. NAFTA- increased trade between member nations increasing commerce and easier to trade resources.
      g. Other possibilities are no chemical weapons, no bio-engineering, etc. Will depend on techs.
    4. Repealing a vote. Any member can call for a repeal of a vote at the next meeting. Needs 2/3 majority. (better start bribing)
    5. Other advanatages include easier negotiations for resources, easy ROP and treaties, etc. amoung member nations
  E. Any member nation can refuse to comply with any law or request. Doing so will cause a reaction depending on severity. (For instance: you reset your factories to continue at 50% after the passing of the Kyoto Protocol. First offence would be mild and so you would pay a fine. A second time would be severe. If you assassinated a leader after the passing of the Geneva Convention the effect is malicious. A non member state is severe. Not helping a member civ that is attacked would be a warning the first time etc.)`
  • 1. Minor- Warning
    2. Mild- Pay a serious fine
    3. Severe- Banned from voting from next tree meetings
    4. Malicious- A vote is held to remove you. Needs 2/3 majority. Violating civ can not vote (but can bribe) Past actions in totality is looked at
  F. The LoN power will be centered at meetings, voting and passing sanctions against a member nations for violations, but when LoN converts to the UN, the UN will have much stronger affect on each nation. It will act as a Permanent Mutual Protection Pact. If one country is attacked he will have the right to ask the other countries to come to his aid or supply units or money. This will be negotiated at the trade table.
  • 1. Any nation attacked can ask at the next meeting for the body as a whole to declare war on the attacking nation.
    2. Or ask for sanctions against that nation, full blockade of all trade etc.
    3. Any nation can refuse to help but will be looked on unfavorably-(see F)
  G. If one member civ is secretly working against another member civ and is discovered, at the next meeting of the UN he will have a malicious charge brought and a vote will be held to remove him. If it was via assassination, expect the worst. (For instance your bribing a non-member nation to attack a member nation to get some effect. Fun but dangerous.)

2. Spies- Spies will have a variety of functions in the expanded espionage game that also play a key part in the LoN/UN via there ability to bribe/manipulate for votes

• A. Spies will come in two forms, as a unit or as an embassy.
  • 1. Spies as units- Spies will be more powerful so they will cost a lot and each civ will be limited to the number each civ can have.
    • a. Spies will be able to be built from the get go (does not take a tech to tell someone to go look at this civ and tell me what you see) but will be expensive
      b. Each civ can only have one spy (Intelligence agency will increase this to two)
      c. Non-Democratic governments can have 1 extra spy
      d. Will be invisible but cannot pass impassable terrain.
      e. Will not be able to penetrate the fog of war. (Cant use them to explore)
      f. Can move one space in enemy territory. (This will increase to two with the intelligence agency.)
      g. The spy will have a variety of abilities that will grow as the civs techs grow.
      • 1. Each mission will have a chance of success (Chance Captured –CC) Government type plays a roll in ability to expose spies. Democratic (D) or Non-Democratic (ND). If caught the chance of revealing the spies civ is D 1/3 ND ½ (ND´s use torture). So there are two rolls, to capture and to expose supporting civ.
        2. Enter a city- Enter and reveal number and type of all troops in that city, production etc. Basically you see the city screen. (CC- D 1/6 ND 1/3)
        3. Assassinate- Kill scientific, religious, great leaders. (CC- D&ND ½. Very risky.)
        • i. If civ is using a scientific leader for increased science output and the spy assassinates him, increase ends.
          ii. Kill army head- dissolves army back to individual units
          iii. Rush improvement- Leader killed before completion, rush is canceled.
          iv. Simple kill a leader doing nothing in a city.
          v. Assassination will be looked on almost as badly as using nuclear weapons.
        4. Under the table negotiations. Moves you to the trade table but it is in secret with other civ.
        • i. Bribe LoN/UN vote
          ii. Bribe to attack other country
          iii. Sell/Gift tech, units, workers, really anything
        5. Other abilities; propaganda, steal tech, etc…
      h. Embassies- Upon building the Small Wonder the Intelligence Agency, any embassy you have acts as spy in that capital. If you are caught the civ can/will force you to close your embassy for 20 turns and after you will have to negotiate with the civ for permission to reopen the embassy.
      • 1. You can always look at that city screen
        2. Instead of enter city, it is steal military plans for all units position and see movement for three turns.
        3. Can assassinate. Only in that city. Sever repercussion if caught. Very expensive to reopen embassy if possible at all.
        4. Plant mole. You will be able to attempt to plant a mole so even if your kicked out or go to war you will still be able to get info on that civ.
        • i. You can not contact that mole. Every five turns he passes on info, possible about a wonder contruction, troop movement, underhand dealing with other civs against you, etc. (CC- D 1/4 ND 1/3)
          ii. Info might be outdated as he might have gotten the info three turns back. Each turn the mole roles to see if he learns something. The amount of time he has planted helps with accuracy and value of info. So if he learned something but does not report for three turns that info will be old.
        5. Negotiate. Will be able to negotiate under the table without having to move a spy to one of the civs cities each time.
  B. Intelligence Agency. This Small Wonder has several benefits
  • 1. Increase number of spies by 1
    2. Spies can move two spaces instead of one
    3. Embassies now act as permanent spies in the capital. The efficiency of embassy spies is dependent on your IA budget unlike your spy units.
  C. Counter-Espionage
  • 1. To help Democratic nations in counter-intelligence, there is the new Small Wonder, the FBI. Increases chance of catching and identifying spies. D´s becomes equal to ND´s.
    2. Under Non-Democratic civs there is the Small Wonder the Secret Police, which will not increasing the chance of catching, but if caught, the spies civ is automatically known (torture, torture, torture)

... or use the SMAC diplomacy template and u get a good UN management. With Atrocity sanctions lifted, "salvage unity core", increase global trading stuff etc. Did work pretty okay in SMAC ...

i like the idea of more indepth spies... however im not sure that spy units are realsitic. they were a bit... silly in civII i thought. specially once railroads are built

@t3h_mo13-- I agree that is why later on, when you get the intelligence agency, your embassies act like static spies. Everyone knows that the embassies are where spies work out of in foreign nations. After that your spy unit, which you have a limited number of (2, 3 for non-dem govs) are more for specific operations possibly in war or in a country your embassy gets kicked out of.

@bibor- I played SMAC, and liked its UN type thing, but it was seriously lacking IMO. I want to see seriously expanded diplomacy at the international level. Intrigue, backstabbing, tension, true interaction between nations. IMO that is the only way to really counter the militaristic domination mentality inherent in the game at this time, and drastically improve the bordem that can set in in the endgame as I have to sill off those last few civs to win. Opinions but I find my opinions are fact... LOL... that was a joke

covenant said:

A. Spies will come in two forms, as a unit or as an embassy.

Click to expand...

Why, why? Why there are still some people who'd love to take a step back into spy-unit system.
Having to move it all around to acomplish their missions. Isn't more easy and less tedious to just keep it as it's know? An spy screen it's enough for all purposes: find the city, choose the action, set the risk, pay the cash, find out what happens.

Keep civilized

David

Much more detailed than my vague ideas, but: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91344 (this is a duplicate thread)

dguichar said:

Why, why? Why there are still some people who'd love to take a step back into spy-unit system.
Having to move it all around to acomplish their missions. Isn't more easy and less tedious to just keep it as it's know? An spy screen it's enough for all purposes: find the city, choose the action, set the risk, pay the cash, find out what happens.

Keep civilized

David

Click to expand...

Read the entire post more carefully (its long I know) and you would see that in the second half of the game the unit will pretty much fade out because of embassies, which was intentional so that in the latter part of the game when you have contact with all the civs you dont need to move the spy about. Or you can use them still, if you choose to infiltrate civs your at war with, or assassinate (a fun operation). Not to mention the spy can do much more than the present system. The present system is pointless, overly expensive, unimaginative and really just plain useless. If a you attempt to plant a spy why does that civ automatically know the nationality of the civ? Why cant I plant a mole so I can still gather info when my embassy closes? This is when I really need to get the info.

And why cant I get the same info before having embassies? I just cant figure that out. All through human history spies have been an intregrel part of diplomacy and war.

So why dont you offer some suggestions, how would you do it???? This is supposed to be a discussion after all to improve Civ3.