Constitutional Amendment Discussion: Article I

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Current Article:

Code: 
Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution

              1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                  of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                  contested elections in the most recent general 
                  election.
              2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                  shall require each of the following:
                a.  A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which 
                    states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                    the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                    posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                    abstain.
                b.  A majority of yes votes.
                c.  A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 
                    2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                    the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
                d.  The Amendment poll must first be posted as a 
                    "proposed poll" in the discussion thread created 
                    for the Amendment. The proposed poll must exist
                    in the discussion thread for 24 hours prior to the 
                    Amendment poll being created. This gives adequate
                    time for review and changes.

Proposed Article Amendment

Code: 
Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution

              1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                  of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                  contested elections in the most recent general 
                  election.
              2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                  shall require each of the following:
                a.  A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which 
                    states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                    the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                    posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                    abstain.
                b.  A [b]60-67%(tbd)[/b] majority of yes votes.
                c.  A [b]total number of votes[/b] greater than or equal to 
                    2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                    the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
                d.  The Amendment poll must first be posted as a 
                    "proposed poll" in the discussion thread created 
                    for the Amendment. The proposed poll must exist
                    in the discussion thread for 24 hours prior to the 
                    Amendment poll being created. This gives adequate
                    time for review and changes.

I am sponsoring this amendment on the basis of the following:

A) Redundancy: This poll has two conflicting yes criteria.
B) Impossibility: 2/3 YES is next to impossible to meet due to the high number of voters during election time contrasted to the rest of the time period.
C) Stupidity: It defines majority as 50%+1 and can be ratified as such, I do not believe 50%+1 is enough, I favour 60%.

Please discuss the article amendment.
 
I always wondered why it said we needed a majority then said we needed 2/3 hah. I just assumed both would have to be satisfied, so 2/3 would be required.

I support this amendment because it ensures 2/3 of people are allowed to express their opinion, and also it makes it easier to amend the constitution which should be a quick and easy process so we are flexible in allowing new rules. and 60% seems acceptable to me.
 
Let me clarify. " b. A majority of yes votes." simply means that in order for the poll to show approval of the amendment. there must be more yes votes than no votes. If you removed that sentnce, but 70% of the citizens voted, but 60% of the citizens voted no, the measure still could conceivably pass, according to the Article.

Secondly, it doesn't really matter how many people show up to vote in your change. What you have done is reduce the quorum of YES votes from .666... of the active census to ..600 - .670 of the active census. So far, this really isn't a reduction.
 
I think 6.7% is a fairly large reduction actually. As said, I encouraged the number 60% be used.
 
I could live with 60% of the active census, which after the elections looks like 30 YES votes. Regardless of how many people voted, if 30 of them were YES votes and there was more YES votes than NO votes, the measure passes. :thumbsup:
 
Cyc said:
I could live with 60% of the active census, which after the elections looks like 30 YES votes. Regardless of how many people voted, if 30 of them were YES votes and there was more YES votes than NO votes, the measure passes. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, this is not how the amendment proposed would work. Point (b) stipulates that we must have a clear majority (60-67%) of YES votes. In other words if we have 40 voters we need at least 24 YES votes for the motion to pass. Point (c) however, is a minimum voter turnout clause. So if there were 60 people in the census, at least 40 of them would have to vote in order to make the poll valid, regardless of which way they actually voted.

So in the ratification polls that just ended, we would then need approximately 30 total votes, not 30 YES votes. Of course, for the motion to be considered passed, there would have to be a clear majority of yes votes, or at least 18, if we use 60% and 30 as the number of required votes.

I am against the voter turnout clause. In principle, it seems like a good idea to make sure that enough people vote before we make any major decision, but that allows the game to be held up simply because some people did not bother to vote. In real life, when voter turnout is very low, they can't just delay the forming of a new government. Instead, it is just assumed that whoever did not vote does not care about the issue. If you do not wish to make your voice heard, then you have no say.
 
For some reason I didn't post the last statement I made in this thread. I had said "Yes, it's a nice cuddly number. Now you can remove item C." I guess I didn't hit the right button.

LeeT911 said:
If I understand correctly, this is not how the amendment proposed would work. Point (b) stipulates that we must have a clear majority (60-67%) of YES votes. In other words if we have 40 voters we need at least 24 YES votes for the motion to pass. Point (c) however, is a minimum voter turnout clause. So if there were 60 people in the census, at least 40 of them would have to vote in order to make the poll valid, regardless of which way they actually voted.
Click to expand...

Well, you're right in a way. What you say makes sense, but what you quoted of me wouldn't have been put in the proposed amendment, but in the Current Article. It would be item C. and state - A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 60% the census current at the start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.

So in your example of 60 people in the census, there would need to be 36 Yes votes. But in a better analogy, there appears to to about 50 citizens in the census. This would make an amendment quorum of 30 YES votes. It wouldn't matter how many people showed up to vote, or how many voted NO (as long as it wasn't more than the YES votes ;) ). It would just be 60% of the Census. As I keep saying, we don't need fancy formulas or complicated situations.

LeeT911 said:
I am against the voter turnout clause. In principle, it seems like a good idea to make sure that enough people vote before we make any major decision, but that allows the game to be held up simply because some people did not bother to vote. In real life, when voter turnout is very low, they can't just delay the forming of a new government. Instead, it is just assumed that whoever did not vote does not care about the issue. If you do not wish to make your voice heard, then you have no say.
Click to expand...

I very much agree with you here, as long as the majority of the Census votes YES.
 
Here are three scenarios. For the sake of this demonstration, I will set the active census at 50 and will adopt Cyc's "50% YES vote" proposal so that 25 YES votes must be required..

Scenario A: The game has finally started and everyone is now enjoying the discussions of settler placements, goody huts, and provincial borders. You know what happens when the game starts: the maintenance of our laws falls into the hands of only a few people, and the citizenry shirks its duty to vote on important amendments.

Yet there stands the census at a daunting 50. And the people are too preoccupied with the advancement of three Zulu Impis at our borders to alter the constitution for the better. Long story short: amendment goes to poll and wins 23-2. Despite almost unanimous approval by those that took the time to vote, MEASURE FAILS.

Scenario B: A somewhat controversial yet practical amendment is sponsored, meets some resistance, but ultimately clocks in at 24-10 with three(3) abstaining. So 2/3 of the active census showed up and supported it but over a 2-1 margin(67%), but since the magic number of 25 was not reached, MEASURE FAILS.

Scenario C: A very divisive issue springs up and has the whole nation up in arms(must be about the turnchat ;) ). Everyone is going to have their say on this one. So guess what? This one reaches target with 27 YES votes. However, the opposition casts 26 votes against it. Finally, MEASURE PASSES!

Of course, these examples have been skewed to prove my point, but don't think that these things won't happen. "50% YES votes" proposal by itself has the ability to nullify what should be legitimate victories(nearly unanmious in A, clear majority and acceptable turnout in B), yet would foster considerable dinenfranchisement by signing a divisive bill into national law(C).

This is why a clear majority must work in tandem with voter turnout. If this complicates things somewhat, then so be it. The citizens can always look to the judiciary for clarifiaction.

So, I still support 67% majority(even 60% is not a clear enough concensus IMHO) of voters, taken from 2/3 of the active census. And I truly believe there should be a "slaughter rule" clause in place for a situation like Example A, as I believe that the 23-2 margin would be hard to overturn even if 8 more people showed up and voted NO.
 
Cyc said:
I could live with 60% of the active census, which after the elections looks like 30 YES votes. Regardless of how many people voted, if 30 of them were YES votes and there was more YES votes than NO votes, the measure passes. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

As I read the proposed Article, it calls for the total number of votes to be 66%. With a census of 48, that means there must be 31 voters. Of those 31, 60% must vote yes. Therefore, 18 yes votes would pass an amendment.

All numbers have been rounded down.

It would make it easier to pass amendments, especially if you have an decreasing level of participation in political matters.
 
Donovan_Zoi said:
Here are three scenarios. For the sake of this demonstration, I will set the active census at 50 and will adopt Cyc's "50% YES vote" proposal so that 25 YES votes must be required..
Click to expand...

I don't want to be disagreeable here, but I stated above, and I quote:

Cyc said:
I could live with 60% of the active census,
Click to expand...


And in scenario A the measure didn't pass because the total turnout of voters didn't meet your 2/3 requirement. ;)

We have to deal with the fact that all of the one-time voters and transient citizens are going to play a heavy role in our census. Our active census will drop, period. With your formula, soon it will only take 16 people to vote and only 11 to pass an amendment. I can't at this point argue that this would be a bad thing, so I'm not going to press it anymore. Let's go with your formula and hope we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Cyc said:
Let's go with your formula and hope we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.
Click to expand...

As is usually the case, we won't know we're shot 'til we see the blood. Fixing a problem often creates another. That's why there are permanent legislatures IRL.
 
Comnenus said:
As is usually the case, we won't know we're shot 'til we see the blood. Fixing a problem often creates another. That's why there are permanent legislatures IRL.
Click to expand...


:lol: :lol: Quite true. Well, I have to get busy putting my Term 1 Judicial thread and my city thread together, so you probably won't hear that much from me. Well, maybe you will. :mischief:
 
Cyc said:
And in scenario A the measure didn't pass because the total turnout of voters didn't meet your 2/3 requirement. ;)
Click to expand...

That's why I mentioned the possibility of a "slaughter rule" clause in the last paragraph of my statement. It would be a shame if a 23-2 vote would be rendered a failure just because no one turned out :) I will put some thought into this today at work.

Cyc said:
We have to deal with the fact that all of the one-time voters and transient citizens are going to play a heavy role in our census. Our active census will drop, period. With your formula, soon it will only take 16 people to vote and only 11 to pass an amendment. I can't at this point argue that this would be a bad thing, so I'm not going to press it anymore. Let's go with your formula and hope we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.
Click to expand...

Understandable. However, the fact remains that we have bills to pass right now, and I am concerned about setting the bar too high based on the transient voters, and us not getting anything acomplished at this crucial stage.

And as far as the future goes, remember that the 67% majority would still apply. Even still, if we find amemdments being too easy to pass down the road, it should in turn be no problem to push through an amendment on Article I itself at that time.

Besides, it's about time that the DG tried out one of those "permanent legislatures" that work so well in RL. ;)
 
OK, this one is starting to get buried. Here is the the latest, if only to re-open discussion on the matter.

Please address the following in your discussion:

Article I.2.b - I believe that our Constitution is important enough that should only be changed by a clear majority and have determined that number to be 67%, not including abstain votes. In other words, whether an item garners a 24y-10n-7a tally or a 24y-10n-0a tally, the measure would still pass. I feel that this is fair; otherwise the Abstain vote would essentially be utilized as a NO vote.

Article I.2.c - Does it need to be written that Abstain votes count toward the census, or is the term "total number of votes" sufficient?



Code: 
Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution

              1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                  of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                  contested elections in the most recent general 
                  election.
              2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                  shall require each of the following:
                a.  A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which 
                    states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                    the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                    posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                    abstain.
                b.  A 67% majority of Yes votes over No votes, Abstain 
                     notwithstanding.
                c.  A total number of votes greater than or equal to 
                    2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                    the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
                d.  The Amendment poll must first be posted as a 
                    "proposed poll" in the discussion thread created 
                    for the Amendment. The proposed poll must exist
                    in the discussion thread for 24 hours prior to the 
                    Amendment poll being created. This gives adequate
                    time for review and changes.

If this works for you as written, either say nothing or post your approval. If there are no objections, this poll will posted 24 hours from now.

EDIT: not a proposed poll just yet..... ;)
 
Donovan Zoi said:
If this works for you as written, either say nothing or post your approval. If there are no objections, this poll will posted 24 hours from now.
Click to expand...

It works for me. But a request must first be made for Judicial Review before sending it to a poll. (Check Judicial Thread.)

You're right, this one has been buried. I forgot totally about it. And thanks for all your help on the other Articles. You made my night much easier. :) :goodjob:
 
No problem. :) I'll check the Judicial thread and respond to your ther posts tomorrow sometime, as it's time to hit the sack.

And thanks for your help as well. It's nice to see a new citizen jump right in and take an interest in what is traditionally the red-headed stepchild of the DemoGame. :goodjob:

I am removing the proposed poll rhetoric, and will heretofore refer to post #15 as a BUMP. :bump: :D

EDIT: Wow, 4 smilies in one post. Yep, it's nappy time. :sleep: make that 5......... :rolleyes:

Bah, goodnight......
 
I think you've finally found a formula that I can live with. I'd still rather just see amendments passing with a simple majority, since if 51% pass the law and it messes us up, it just takes a couple of people changing their mind and it can be undone. But I'm leaning Cyc's way -- just hammer what we have into the shape of a legally submitted amendment and vote on it. :hammer:
 
Any and all citizens, are there any additional comments/suggestions prior to sending this for JR?
 
This poll was created to amend Article I of the Constitution. If this Legislation is approved, it will replace the current Article I. This law seeks to lower the number of YES votes need for passage of an amendement, while still requiring a clear majority of participants to do so.

Article I - Current

Code: 
Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution

              1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                  of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                  contested elections in the most recent general 
                  election.
              2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                  shall require each of the following:
                a.  A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which 
                    states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                    the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                    posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                    abstain.
                b.  A majority of yes votes.
                c.  A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 
                    2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                    the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
                d.  The Amendment poll must first be posted as a 
                    "proposed poll" in the discussion thread created 
                    for the Amendment. The proposed poll must exist
                    in the discussion thread for 24 hours prior to the 
                    Amendment poll being created. This gives adequate
                    time for review and changes.

Article I - Amended Changes in boldface

Code: 
Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution

              1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                  of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                  contested elections in the most recent general 
                  election.
              2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                  shall require each of the following:
                a.  A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which 
                    states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                    the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                    posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                    abstain.
                b.  [b]A 67% majority of Yes votes over No votes, Abstain 
                     notwithstanding.[/b]
                c.  [b]A total number of votes[/b] greater than or equal to 
                    2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                    the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
                d.  The Amendment poll must first be posted as a 
                    "proposed poll" in the discussion thread created 
                    for the Amendment. The proposed poll must exist
                    in the discussion thread for 24 hours prior to the 
                    Amendment poll being created. This gives adequate
                    time for review and changes.

Please Vote one of the following options ~
YES - You want to amend this Article of the Constitution
NO - You reject this Article
ABSTAIN - You have no opinion

This poll will remain open for 4 days
Relevant discussion can be found here.
 
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