RBC15e - Spain - Demigod
- Thread starter Grimjack
- Start date
From looking at map, I would tentatively suggest that we make a soft start, and do not attack France until we have cleared out our back.
I suggest we gather some 5 cavalry, and 4-5 cannon, and strike along the blue arrow at Portugal, and sweep northwards, and do not stop until Portugal is gone.
Portugal is likely top drag in Britain against us, and that is good, as we then most likely will be able to extort a tech after we hit Gibraltar. ( We will have to fight a holding battle until we have finished killing Portugal. )
As to tech, I suggest we use the above method to get our first tech, as opposed to researching by ourselves.
Only other alternative would be to go for Marseilles, but that is really not feasible until we have amassed a few cannon. I suspect we could build a fleet and sail to Italy, but any cities captured here would not be productive, so I would discount this until later when we have gotten the cities we could actually use.
One advantage we have, is that our economy does not suck. We get 100gpt surplus if we nix research, before optimizing cities. I suggest we do a lone scientist on one of the two bottom techs, as we could quite possibly get a tech by that method.
Also, be aware that France will likely win by VPs sometime around turn 60ish, so we need to eliminate them before that. It is unlikely we can get more VPs than they do without them being severely weakened.
Last, any thoughts on 5 or 10 turns per round ? We are only four, but it could be possible you get only one round if we went 10 per round.
So, I am eager to hear your views, and as/if we reach consensus, I will kick the game on.
I suggest we gather some 5 cavalry, and 4-5 cannon, and strike along the blue arrow at Portugal, and sweep northwards, and do not stop until Portugal is gone.
Portugal is likely top drag in Britain against us, and that is good, as we then most likely will be able to extort a tech after we hit Gibraltar. ( We will have to fight a holding battle until we have finished killing Portugal. )
As to tech, I suggest we use the above method to get our first tech, as opposed to researching by ourselves.
Only other alternative would be to go for Marseilles, but that is really not feasible until we have amassed a few cannon. I suspect we could build a fleet and sail to Italy, but any cities captured here would not be productive, so I would discount this until later when we have gotten the cities we could actually use.
One advantage we have, is that our economy does not suck. We get 100gpt surplus if we nix research, before optimizing cities. I suggest we do a lone scientist on one of the two bottom techs, as we could quite possibly get a tech by that method.
Also, be aware that France will likely win by VPs sometime around turn 60ish, so we need to eliminate them before that. It is unlikely we can get more VPs than they do without them being severely weakened.
Last, any thoughts on 5 or 10 turns per round ? We are only four, but it could be possible you get only one round if we went 10 per round.
So, I am eager to hear your views, and as/if we reach consensus, I will kick the game on.
Attachments
Aggie
Deity
Checking in. First-time player as well.
Looks like all infra units we can wish for are already present.
Am I right in assuming that it is all about getting cannons and cavalry up and running? And that Nationalism gives us a unit -the Soldado- that is far more expensive but hardly better than a musket?
I don't see any super techs for us to absolutely have. We might want to get Artillery Tactics for the Grand Battery (looks like an artillery unit in the epic game).
I'm all for taking out the Portuguese and getting Gibraltar. We certainly need more military to go for France. Those French have an awesome cavalry UU.
I agree with 5 turns per player. I like to be 'up' at least twice
Looks like all infra units we can wish for are already present.
Am I right in assuming that it is all about getting cannons and cavalry up and running? And that Nationalism gives us a unit -the Soldado- that is far more expensive but hardly better than a musket?
I don't see any super techs for us to absolutely have. We might want to get Artillery Tactics for the Grand Battery (looks like an artillery unit in the epic game).
I'm all for taking out the Portuguese and getting Gibraltar. We certainly need more military to go for France. Those French have an awesome cavalry UU.
I agree with 5 turns per player. I like to be 'up' at least twice
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Not likely, sure. They are in a locked alliance.
One point: If you ever want to fight France, do it soon. Once the get to Advanced Tactics, you'll face 8.8.1 Imperial Guards...
Don't think France will reach 60 000 that soon; they usually get most of their VPs by fighting AI Spain, so if you manage to loose as little as possible, you should have some more time.
chenglian
Chieftain
I started a game myself a little time ago, but I didn't play long, rather I just played a few turns to see what would happen. France does rack up VPs quite quickly, so we'll have to sooner or later take the fight to them.
I have noticed a few things on this map, such as what cities can be optimized to do what, but I'm not sure if that'd be spoiler info or not. But if no one minds, I'd like to discuss a few of the finer points of city management.
I have noticed a few things on this map, such as what cities can be optimized to do what, but I'm not sure if that'd be spoiler info or not. But if no one minds, I'd like to discuss a few of the finer points of city management.
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
Checking in.
I played a little last night and was able to trade from England for Naval Tactics with a load of cash and then collect everyone elses money. I don't know if that was the right way to go but I had a tech for free because the money collected was worth more than what I wold eventually pay out in gpt. I then made the mistake of attacking Portugal and igniting Britain on me. Those Redcoats of theres are tough. I set up two worker factories out of the gate, Corunna and Barcelona. That would probably help us a lot.
I really not understanding the talk of the MA cheat? in the setup thread so please don't put me 1st. I would like to know the goals and follow suit.
I played a little last night and was able to trade from England for Naval Tactics with a load of cash and then collect everyone elses money. I don't know if that was the right way to go but I had a tech for free because the money collected was worth more than what I wold eventually pay out in gpt. I then made the mistake of attacking Portugal and igniting Britain on me. Those Redcoats of theres are tough. I set up two worker factories out of the gate, Corunna and Barcelona. That would probably help us a lot.
I really not understanding the talk of the MA cheat? in the setup thread so please don't put me 1st. I would like to know the goals and follow suit.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
The MA issue shouldn't affect the weaklings, only the superpowers. It was in RoR/FoR/Middle Ages/AoD as well, but since only Rome/Byzantium was comparably strong to France and Britain here, it didn't have a lot of consequences.
The trade looks interesting. I have a vague feeling that it would break the spirit of the game if we struck at POrtugal after signing a deal with their allies though, and that would mean we would need to go after France.
While France will sooner or later get the 8.8.1, I am more scared of their cavalry unit which they can build now. Should we go after France at once, I am afraid of a stalemate.
I was thinking Britain would take their garrison out of Gibraltar during the first couple of turns, so that there wouldn't be a huge stack of RedCoats in our belly.
Grimjack
While France will sooner or later get the 8.8.1, I am more scared of their cavalry unit which they can build now. Should we go after France at once, I am afraid of a stalemate.
I was thinking Britain would take their garrison out of Gibraltar during the first couple of turns, so that there wouldn't be a huge stack of RedCoats in our belly.
Grimjack
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
Would it be breaking the spirit of the game if Portugal declares on us? They get into a war with France and try to send cavs across our lands. We can give hime the boot. The problem is they may not declare and just go home. Then France will go in and conquer Portugal, we can then declare and take Frances new cities. We can give France an RoP to speed the Port/Eng cities demise. By the time they get those cities we should have a nice army set up.
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
Aggie
Deity
The war vs Portugal has to be a fast one and we then shouldn't hesitate too long before attacking France. Therefore I'm not too sure about the ROP with France.
Giving Portugal the boot sounds like a good idea though.
Giving Portugal the boot sounds like a good idea though.
RBC15 - Spain.
(0) This will be ( hopefully) a quiet turn of building strength. I will build cannon and cavalry. I see no other
immediate needs.
I start by twiddling cities, and selling unneeded infra like courthouse in Madrid.
I draw our cavalry and a couple of cannon to Seville in the south, and start another troop in the north.
Time for Barbslingers proposed trade. I will not grab Nationalism, as that would mean our Muskets become 15 shields
more expensive for one extra in attack strength.
Buy Naval Tactics from England for 105 gpt and some change.
Sell to France for 400 gold,
Sell to Prussia for 300 gold and 11 gpt ( ?? Why would he pay more than France ?? France would not accept any gpt in
addition to the 400 gold. )
Sell to Austria for Furs and 300 gold.
Sell to Ottoman for 200 and yet another luxury
Sell to Naples for Silks and 155 gold.
Sell to Russia for 200 gold.
Sell to Sweden for 200 gold
Sell to Denmark for 200 gold
Sell to Netherlands for 200 gold
Sell to Portugal for 200 gold and 7 gpt.
Weird, looks like the tech did not diminish in value as I sold it around, as all except France bid their treasury.
So I got a tech, three luxes and 350 gold for free essentially.
Time to end turn.
( We do have a spare gems, but France is the only nation able to pay for this lux, and I do not want to start any 20
turn deals with them. )
Economy is funny, with 2497 gold in our coffers, and +19 gpt income. Luxes will make every city we have to be in we
love the blablas day.
IBT:
Russia and Sweden sign MPP, Neopolitans wants us to embargo the Danes, but we say no thanks..
I see a Frigate and a privateer leave Gibraltar. No Troop transport unfortunately.
Ahh, I am reminded what I forgot last turn, as I have not started the FP.
I will start a preliminary build a bit up north. I deem that the only direction where the FP may help somewhat.
(1)
I rush two cannon in the cities I aim to become our worker camps. ( First round food is empty, so it is four turns to
growth instead of one, so I built cannon.
Not much more to do. Emphasize growth and commerce in the two cities where I rushed cannon. I switch to Forbidden
Palace in Zaragoza. Some nations has gotten a bit of money, but nothing I can lay our warm and gentle hands on.
IBT: Britain Signs in Russia against France. Portugal sends a trespassing cavalry against us.Cartagena
Cannon->Worker, Pamplona Cannon->WorkerMerida worker->Walls.
(2) It is a bit early to do something about the cavalry, and he is prehaps only lost. I will wait and see what it
does.
I do rush a cavalry nearby though, in case it gets ugly fast. I am debating for the longest time if I should spend the
advantage we have gained from the trade on rushing cavalry, and strike while we have a numerary advantage. It feels
somewhat wrong to rush in productive cities though. I am also thinking of revolting into republic. Since we are
religious, I take the plunge. We are not locked into any alliances, so we ought to be able to handle War weariness.
That means I do rush the horses, as we may need them during anarchy.
We have no happiness problems during anarchy, even though our economy sucks a bit with the large payments to Britain
sucking our money.
IBT: France wants us to ally against the Portugese, but I say no thanks. Madrid Cavalry->Cavalry, Barcelona
Cannon->Cannon,Sevilla Cannon->Musket,Cartagena Worker->Worker, Medina: Cavalry->Cavalry, Valencia Cavalry->Cavalry,
Oviedo Cannon->Cannon, Corunna Harbor->Cavalry,
(3) I ask POrtugal what their cavalry is doing in our mountains, and gets the answer they are missionaries there to
see the heathens. Portugal assures me their missionaries will be removed soonish.
We are in anarchy, so there is really not much I can do. We now have two forces sufficient to ahndle whatever
incursions Portugal can throw at us, one in the south, and one in the north. I will reinforce the one north now, as it
may happen we go to war against France before Portugal.
IBT: Ottoman and Britain sign up against the Danish.
(4) All hail the glorious republic of Spain. Our economy skyrockets, and we now earn 93 gpt instead of 15 gpt. Economy
will likely suffer a bit as I adjust cities for production instead, but all in all, I think we gained from the switch.
( Especially since all our populace is happy even without the MPs...... WHat an economy. )
It is almost a shame to ask the POrtugese to leave now that they are on the verge of French soil, but he has no right
to cross our territory without paying a huge toll. As we outnumber him, he withdraws.
I switch Barcelona to worker.
Cartagena is producing a bit much for a worker farm, and should be a productive city after it has produced a couple of
workers.
Hmm, my fiddling raised income to 117 gpt instead of lowering it. Weird.
IBT: Ottoman empire and Russia sign alliance against France.
(5) The Portugese cavalry is no longer within our borders. We can grow a bigger army in peace.
By Merida I have two workers. WHen I have two workers, I let one road, and the other irrigate. Then the roading one
will be able to move a bit earlier.
We now earn 134 gpt, and as we grow we will make even more money. I recommend rushing cavalry and striking at France
while we will have a relatively easy time there. Not to forget to bring cavalry and muskets as well. We need/want to
keep the land we grab.
Hmm, I destroyed the cleanliness of the Pamplona worker fram by letting it grow during anarchy. Cannot figure out
anything better than workers out of it anyway, so I leave it up to next player to decide what to do. We could surely
use more workers, as we work unimproved tiles in many cities.
Grimjack
Grimjack --- Played
Aggie --- Playing
Chenglian -- Getting ready
Barbslinger - Chomping at the bit
(0) This will be ( hopefully) a quiet turn of building strength. I will build cannon and cavalry. I see no other
immediate needs.
I start by twiddling cities, and selling unneeded infra like courthouse in Madrid.
I draw our cavalry and a couple of cannon to Seville in the south, and start another troop in the north.
Time for Barbslingers proposed trade. I will not grab Nationalism, as that would mean our Muskets become 15 shields
more expensive for one extra in attack strength.
Buy Naval Tactics from England for 105 gpt and some change.
Sell to France for 400 gold,
Sell to Prussia for 300 gold and 11 gpt ( ?? Why would he pay more than France ?? France would not accept any gpt in
addition to the 400 gold. )
Sell to Austria for Furs and 300 gold.
Sell to Ottoman for 200 and yet another luxury
Sell to Naples for Silks and 155 gold.
Sell to Russia for 200 gold.
Sell to Sweden for 200 gold
Sell to Denmark for 200 gold
Sell to Netherlands for 200 gold
Sell to Portugal for 200 gold and 7 gpt.
Weird, looks like the tech did not diminish in value as I sold it around, as all except France bid their treasury.
So I got a tech, three luxes and 350 gold for free essentially.
Time to end turn.
( We do have a spare gems, but France is the only nation able to pay for this lux, and I do not want to start any 20
turn deals with them. )
Economy is funny, with 2497 gold in our coffers, and +19 gpt income. Luxes will make every city we have to be in we
love the blablas day.
IBT:
Russia and Sweden sign MPP, Neopolitans wants us to embargo the Danes, but we say no thanks..
I see a Frigate and a privateer leave Gibraltar. No Troop transport unfortunately.
Ahh, I am reminded what I forgot last turn, as I have not started the FP.
I will start a preliminary build a bit up north. I deem that the only direction where the FP may help somewhat.
(1)
I rush two cannon in the cities I aim to become our worker camps. ( First round food is empty, so it is four turns to
growth instead of one, so I built cannon.
Not much more to do. Emphasize growth and commerce in the two cities where I rushed cannon. I switch to Forbidden
Palace in Zaragoza. Some nations has gotten a bit of money, but nothing I can lay our warm and gentle hands on.
IBT: Britain Signs in Russia against France. Portugal sends a trespassing cavalry against us.Cartagena
Cannon->Worker, Pamplona Cannon->WorkerMerida worker->Walls.
(2) It is a bit early to do something about the cavalry, and he is prehaps only lost. I will wait and see what it
does.
I do rush a cavalry nearby though, in case it gets ugly fast. I am debating for the longest time if I should spend the
advantage we have gained from the trade on rushing cavalry, and strike while we have a numerary advantage. It feels
somewhat wrong to rush in productive cities though. I am also thinking of revolting into republic. Since we are
religious, I take the plunge. We are not locked into any alliances, so we ought to be able to handle War weariness.
That means I do rush the horses, as we may need them during anarchy.
We have no happiness problems during anarchy, even though our economy sucks a bit with the large payments to Britain
sucking our money.
IBT: France wants us to ally against the Portugese, but I say no thanks. Madrid Cavalry->Cavalry, Barcelona
Cannon->Cannon,Sevilla Cannon->Musket,Cartagena Worker->Worker, Medina: Cavalry->Cavalry, Valencia Cavalry->Cavalry,
Oviedo Cannon->Cannon, Corunna Harbor->Cavalry,
(3) I ask POrtugal what their cavalry is doing in our mountains, and gets the answer they are missionaries there to
see the heathens. Portugal assures me their missionaries will be removed soonish.
We are in anarchy, so there is really not much I can do. We now have two forces sufficient to ahndle whatever
incursions Portugal can throw at us, one in the south, and one in the north. I will reinforce the one north now, as it
may happen we go to war against France before Portugal.
IBT: Ottoman and Britain sign up against the Danish.
(4) All hail the glorious republic of Spain. Our economy skyrockets, and we now earn 93 gpt instead of 15 gpt. Economy
will likely suffer a bit as I adjust cities for production instead, but all in all, I think we gained from the switch.
( Especially since all our populace is happy even without the MPs...... WHat an economy. )
It is almost a shame to ask the POrtugese to leave now that they are on the verge of French soil, but he has no right
to cross our territory without paying a huge toll. As we outnumber him, he withdraws.
I switch Barcelona to worker.
Cartagena is producing a bit much for a worker farm, and should be a productive city after it has produced a couple of
workers.
Hmm, my fiddling raised income to 117 gpt instead of lowering it. Weird.
IBT: Ottoman empire and Russia sign alliance against France.
(5) The Portugese cavalry is no longer within our borders. We can grow a bigger army in peace.
By Merida I have two workers. WHen I have two workers, I let one road, and the other irrigate. Then the roading one
will be able to move a bit earlier.
We now earn 134 gpt, and as we grow we will make even more money. I recommend rushing cavalry and striking at France
while we will have a relatively easy time there. Not to forget to bring cavalry and muskets as well. We need/want to
keep the land we grab.
Hmm, I destroyed the cleanliness of the Pamplona worker fram by letting it grow during anarchy. Cannot figure out
anything better than workers out of it anyway, so I leave it up to next player to decide what to do. We could surely
use more workers, as we work unimproved tiles in many cities.
Grimjack
Grimjack --- Played
Aggie --- Playing
Chenglian -- Getting ready
Barbslinger - Chomping at the bit
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
Being Republic it would really be nice to have France declare on us. I'm sure it is just a matter of time before Napolean starts heading for ortugal/Gibralter. If we could time it just right we may be able to a) let France take out the 4 cities, and b) demand they get the heck out and with Napoleons vanity we will be at war and get some reverse -WW that will last until if and when we lose a city.
Someone yank my reins if this seems out of whack. I've never played this scenario before.
BTW, has anyone opened up the French game to see how many troops Napolean starts with. With that info we can make rough estimations, once all the MPP kick in, of how many and where his troops may be. I understand from other threads that France likes to take out the Dutch early. Doc mentioned 5 turns or so.
Also I see no mention of our research goals. Are we just riding the AI wave and looking to 2-fer our way to brilliance? That sounds good too.
Someone yank my reins if this seems out of whack. I've never played this scenario before.
BTW, has anyone opened up the French game to see how many troops Napolean starts with. With that info we can make rough estimations, once all the MPP kick in, of how many and where his troops may be. I understand from other threads that France likes to take out the Dutch early. Doc mentioned 5 turns or so.
Also I see no mention of our research goals. Are we just riding the AI wave and looking to 2-fer our way to brilliance? That sounds good too.
Aggie
Deity
Got it. I'm up in a couple of games. I will check out the game and comment tomorrow.
Aggie
Deity
We aren't researching and I agree with that. France starts with 3 Imperial cavalry, 14 muskets and 16 voltigeurs. So 30 slow units and only 3 fast but powerful units. I don't see why it is a problem to rush cavalry to speed it up by 7 turns. I think that we should build our troops up fast to use the slow start of the AI.
I also do not think there is anything we need to research. Granted it could possibly be good to get mobilization as a sort of mini-GA, but Nationalism should be dirt cheap to research once it is spread out.
We have libs in most of our cities. I had not expected our infra to be this developed.
One thing about rushing cavalries. As it is, we ought not to appear strong, as then the AI is less likely to declare war. Notice my failed demands on Portugal.
France on the other hand, will likely declare at the drop of a hat, so I agree it is just a matter of time.
I suspect Napoleon will come as soon as he has dispatched the Dutch, as then Portugal ought to look like a target. I doubt he can manage to grab Gibraltar though. It is heavily defended, and we might have to do something after the twenty turns are done.
Have good reasons if you sign new deals.
We have libs in most of our cities. I had not expected our infra to be this developed.
One thing about rushing cavalries. As it is, we ought not to appear strong, as then the AI is less likely to declare war. Notice my failed demands on Portugal.
France on the other hand, will likely declare at the drop of a hat, so I agree it is just a matter of time.
I suspect Napoleon will come as soon as he has dispatched the Dutch, as then Portugal ought to look like a target. I doubt he can manage to grab Gibraltar though. It is heavily defended, and we might have to do something after the twenty turns are done.
Have good reasons if you sign new deals.
Aggie
Deity
I can understand that it is best to get the AI declare on us on our terms. But I also like the variant where we get as many troops as possible, because our main foe will be France and we shouldn't wait too long.
I also see that we would like to get rid of the huge gpt payment of England this way.
Your tactic would be to steadily build up military (withpout rushing) until either England or France declares on us, which is the time to rush troops in about every city?
I also see that we would like to get rid of the huge gpt payment of England this way.
Your tactic would be to steadily build up military (withpout rushing) until either England or France declares on us, which is the time to rush troops in about every city?
Aggie
Deity
IHT: Not a lot to do, but I MM a few towns to grow faster.
IT: Prussia and Britian MA vs France. Britain demand 63 gold and TM. I tell them no. We are at war with Britain and get our grand gpt payment back
Turn 1 (1801 AD - Jan) I now decide to rush cavalry in 4 cities. We need it for Britain and later Portugal (The MPP between them will surely trigger the war).
I also order a few cannons in Barcelona and Cartagena.
IT: Denamrk declares war on the Russians. Seville, Medina, Valencia, Oviedo: cav->cav,
Turn 2 (1801 AD - Mar) Troops move to the south.
IT: Pamplona, Oviedo: worker->musket. Merida: walls->cannon. France appears to sail to Gibraltar.
Turn 3 (1801 AD - May)
IT: Uh - oh... 4 English units land next to Corunna. Oviedo: cav - cav.
Turn 4 (1801 AD Jun) Those 4 units are Household cavalry (7.4.2). We only have three muskets and three cavs close by.
We kill 2 household cavs and redline another, but we lose one cav as well. Corunna will hold in the IT. A cav is rushed in Medina. [2-1]
IT: Austria and Portugal MA vs France. Austria want to MPP and I say no. Britain and Prussia embargo us. Sweden and Britain do the same. Our brave musket redlines two HH cavs![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
The French troops decide to retreat and NOT to attack Gibraltar 
Madrid, Medina: cav->cav.
Turn 5 (1801 AD Sep) I can't attack the two HH cavalry, Our offensive units are wounded. They will probably pillage one or two tiles.
IT: Prussia and Britian MA vs France. Britain demand 63 gold and TM. I tell them no. We are at war with Britain and get our grand gpt payment back
Turn 1 (1801 AD - Jan) I now decide to rush cavalry in 4 cities. We need it for Britain and later Portugal (The MPP between them will surely trigger the war).
I also order a few cannons in Barcelona and Cartagena.
IT: Denamrk declares war on the Russians. Seville, Medina, Valencia, Oviedo: cav->cav,
Turn 2 (1801 AD - Mar) Troops move to the south.
IT: Pamplona, Oviedo: worker->musket. Merida: walls->cannon. France appears to sail to Gibraltar.
Turn 3 (1801 AD - May)
IT: Uh - oh... 4 English units land next to Corunna. Oviedo: cav - cav.
Turn 4 (1801 AD Jun) Those 4 units are Household cavalry (7.4.2). We only have three muskets and three cavs close by.
We kill 2 household cavs and redline another, but we lose one cav as well. Corunna will hold in the IT. A cav is rushed in Medina. [2-1]
IT: Austria and Portugal MA vs France. Austria want to MPP and I say no. Britain and Prussia embargo us. Sweden and Britain do the same. Our brave musket redlines two HH cavs
The French troops decide to retreat and NOT to attack Gibraltar Madrid, Medina: cav->cav.
Turn 5 (1801 AD Sep) I can't attack the two HH cavalry, Our offensive units are wounded. They will probably pillage one or two tiles.
That was an unforeseen happening. I suggest we hit Gibraltar as soon as we have dealt with the Englanders offensive forces. I am fairly certain they landed their entire cavalry force.
better keep two cannon and two cavalry on our northern coast while we spank their buddies the Portugese who will declare as we strike Gibraltar.
Hopefulyl five cannon and five cavalry will be enough to grab that piece of real estate.
Grimjack --- Getting the itch
Aggie --- Just Played
Chenglian -- Supposed to start playing
Barbslinger - Getting ready
better keep two cannon and two cavalry on our northern coast while we spank their buddies the Portugese who will declare as we strike Gibraltar.
Hopefulyl five cannon and five cavalry will be enough to grab that piece of real estate.
Grimjack --- Getting the itch
Aggie --- Just Played
Chenglian -- Supposed to start playing
Barbslinger - Getting ready
Similar threads
