Ministry of Trade: Gold for Mysticism

Donovan Zoi

The Return
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
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Location
Chicago
It is unconscienable that the chat was stopped for this, as both our gold and the tech(Mysticism) would still be there once we reached the chat goal of discovering Iron Working.

That said, I talked to all known parties, and found that Iroquois offer the best deal. Everyone else is 74 or above.

We give: 69g + 1 gpt
They give: Mysticism

Our treasury currently stands at 90g and we are making 1 gpt.

We are due to discover Iron Working in 5 turns, after which I still believe the chat should be stopped. While this may be unsettling to some, the Trade Department will not take the blame for chat stoppage based on a non-crucial decision. This could have waited until Annum Ferrum. :(

I may consider extending the chat beyond Annum Ferrum if I can be persuaded. And since I have no intention of trading off our strongest Military tech, that is quite possible. However, convincing me that we should consider trading IW would once again force me to request chat stoppage in five turns.

Please post any questions or concerns.
 
Hey Donnie :)

I am not upset or anything, I know you were not there. It was someone overruling your instructions with anarchistic jitter, your trade authority was posted and fine. You are not to blame on this one, I read the chatlog, so I know what happened. Turnchats are political events where mobrule overrules instructions, and are in fact a riskful event if a DP is susceptible to cross pressure. Luckily, in what you considered a nightmare, the 17 turnchat, all were happy and satisfied. However, you are right, we are not going to trade away Iron Working, yet, we should do the trade BEFORE we get it, or they will push us for IW or give nothing. Ideally making the trade 1 turn before IW. As opposed to most of the newbees, I read a sizable amount of the DGs before, and the reason you never got to turn 100 in term one, was that someone messed up majorly in term one, floundering the game till someone took control.

We don't really need to cultivate Soviet management practices, or make this a three month rush, however, the game needs a certain pace to keep the people entertained and amused, and I think a large number think the game goes way too slowly, and that is not to deliberately delaying opening the JAck in a Box, but that someone for some reason messes up by not delivering on time. This time I had to talk to Ministers and Deputies as well as the Judiciary in order to line up iron working, yet some little troll surfaced from a little hole in the Earth and capsized a 11 turn schedule, perfectly close to the sacred 10 turns. What is this aversion to a decent pace in the beginning where there is hardly any units I do not know. I would much rather slow down in term 5, in order to follow the military battles in closer details, and not run 22 hour marathon turnchats with 3-5 people present. The reason that people fall off during the beginning of the game, is the legal shadowfighting, stupid delays and in general the lack of stimulating activity that makes the more tenacious individuals more thirsty for blood than gameplay. I am not going to do anybody elses job, but you can bet I will go to the deputys if they are not delivering, and use any legitimate democratic means to keep the process flowing. In fact, few people seem to be focused on keeping up the pace right now, but I was happy on what we wanted to do on the IW trail TC.
That some dark horse hijacked our instructions, is due to other factors.

Yet, in respect for those of us who commit to the game at unfomfortable times, just to watch someone hit space 4-5 times, I would much rather see a slight improvement.
As a compromise, I suggest we go for the production of the settler for iron city, AFTER site G , lawfully chosen by a massive 20 or so votes, and when that settler has been completed, THEN we can have a meaningful debate on the location of iron city, based on map and strategic data influencing the decision. With the Iroquois onthe table, we need more mapping in order to know which iron to position by, if we can deprive some
ciivilization, like the Romans for Iron, that would be a coup. Stopping the TC with a premature ejac... errr, location discussion would only be plain stupid.
We also need a filibustering police in the turnchats so that noone unauthorized can overule democratically decided instructions with some mob rule jingoism.

Finally, 4 plus 5-6-7-8 turns? quite doable, and I will do everything in my power to advocate, AS A CITIZEN :) LOL cough, for mysticism., and THEN we can have a decent settler localization debate for IRON CITY , AFTER G is founded and AFTER the settler designated for Iron City is built. And hopefully, I will seee no crazy initiatives to kill off G for a premature iron location we may regret later. You proved with Furuyama that avoiding Gems is plain dumb. Oh, I fogot to tell you, you are one of my favorite ministers regardless of your comfy/sedate outlook on the game progress? :)
 
Tim is right, do BOTH trades if possible, we can even get some gold back
 
As I posted in the Trade thread, after looking at the save, I would purchase niether of the two. Research time for Mysticism is NOW 8 turns, Alphabet is 10. BTW, DZ I believe you're looking at the trades through C3C or PTW, as your figures do not match mine. I show the trades at a higher cost. Also, IW is due in 4 turns at 90% Science, not 5!

That said, I would raise the Science rate to 100% and get IW in 3 turns. Then we can either research Myst at the reduce tech research time or buy it at a reduced cost. We don't need to be spending our gold on a half-value worker.
 
Nice possiblity is to do both trades at once. Worker is not that useless because we save 1 population and time to build it, he can make some roads and we can always join him to our city.
The downside is that we lose our gold but we can get back some (i think 14 gold) when we sell mysticism.

Increasing science to 100% seems fine.

AND 8 or 10 turns to get some tech is not a little.
Think about we're getting Republic in 40 or in 32. Would it be worth 100 gold? I believe answer is simple.
 
Keep in mind that there is another trade possibility:

We Give: 28g
They Give: Worker
 
As you can see by the pics below, (we are currently at 90% Science/ +1 gpt) at 90% Science we get IW in 4, while at 100% we get IW in 3.

Slider90.jpg


Slider100.jpg


BUT, as the pic below shows, you are correct about the trade with the Iroquois.

Irotrade2.jpg


EDIT: Put in the right pic.
 
Cyc

I must admit that I agree with Epithemius, Strider and all the other ones advocating for the cheap babylonian settler. I thought we got a zulu one too for 30, however, that never showed up. This continent is so vast, that it will never be unemployed people in Japanatica. 28 gold is a small price. I also agree with Cyc to not trade mysticism, on the condition that we build City G without any delay, in order for us to research effectively what we are not going to buy. I can assure you one thing, the AI will pretty soon figure out that Mitsubishi is a darn sexy spot for settling up a tech and business powerhouse. For an American, it would be comparable to sacrifice the economic center of New York in order to have Pittsburgh churning out some honkey tonk blue collar workers to build some new shantytown. I agree with you Cyc, we can wait for the next settler after the next one to optimize the very best iron location.
With this many hills, we will probably see iron all over the place. The question is which site. On the gold issue, where I also agreee with Cyc, is that we wil upgrade warriors to become swordsmen with Iron Working, so we need gold to do that.

In short, get Mustafa from Babylonia to work in the diamond mines in Mitsubishi, and see if we can buy more foreign labor if doable. Mitsubishi offers lifetime employment :)
 
/non-science-department-mode
What is Mysticism good for for us? Only if we bee-line straight to Monarchy, which we don't. We've voted for Alphabet after Iron Working.

I don't like to spend all our money on a tech we won't use immediately when we have a monopoly tech (thus tradable) in a couple of turns. Don't throw away our money.

/Science-department-mode
Techs are great; get all techs !!

/non-science-department-mode
This worker is a great purchase, but I don't want it. Just a principle; I don't buy or trade workers before 1000 BC or later. And I don't like slaves either. We are the proud nation of Japanatica, any non-Japanatican is worth nothing, not even 28 gold. We should face the world alone, not with the aid of slaves.

No worker purchase !

/Science-department-mode
I don't care.

My real thoughts are in the non science mode
 
Cyc: The babylon worker purchase wouldnt be only for us to recieve a worker from, it would be to cripple babylon with.
 
Immortal said:
Cyc: The babylon worker purchase wouldnt be only for us to recieve a worker from, it would be to cripple babylon with.

Immo, my friend. Last T/C everyone was *complaining* about what a horrific mistake it was to give Babylon 20 gold (1gpt) for BW (we actually only spent 8 gold of our own for the tech). Now everyone is saying what a GREAT deal it is to give Babylon 26-28 gold up front for a slave worker that is only half as efficient as our workers. Think about it.

And I can't see one worker crippling Babylon. Get real.
 
We should never trade for workers as they would be good for only one use, pop rushing. Would 28g be what we'd what for one pop. I don't think so. A slave works at half pace so thing would take twice as long which seems to be a waste of time. What would we need to give to get Alphabet? Or is this to high for us to get? If we'd get Mysticism then maybe we should redo the poll to take into account for this because it would make getting Monarchy easier.
 
I am for purchasing Mysticism, though we should find a way to get the gold back via another trade. I am not a fan of trading Iron Working to another civ due because that it would enable the other civ to get there hands on iron.
 
Myst is useless to us now, it will be around 5, 10, 20 turns from now. Sure, the worker is only half as productive, but that worker also has no upkeep. So if we switch to Republic/Democracy, in 28 turns that worker would've paid for itself. Not only that, but it can easily be put with a worker to mine/road hills and cut some of the time off.

Also, I am strongly against not trading Iron Working. You have to remember that the AI knows where all of the resources are anyway, so being able to see it or not isn't going to effect anything at all. Not only that, but we won't be the only civ with Iron Working for very long, if we even get it first. Let's trade it and catch up on techs.
 
What's even the point of buying a worker? I think we should trade Iron Working because probably by now other civs are researching or on the verge of researching. Most of the AI will research Iron Working, it's a top priority for them. We should trade it to them instead so we can get caught up in the tech tree.
 
There is no point in us wasting our money and buying a worker.

Didn't we vote on getting Alphabet after IW(Retorical question)? Yes we did. We should try and trade for Alphabet instead of Mysticism. I know that both the Iroqous and the Romans have it. What is the best deal we can get on Alphabet?
 
It seems that we are split on whether to pay for Mysticism or not. One thing to kep in mind is that Mysticism may come in handy to trade to the Babs, as they don't have it yet either. But the Babs need to discover something worthy of our generosity first.

Does anyone have any educated guesses on what Babylon may be researching now? If it's Masonry, then we may want to consider the Mysticism purchase from the Iroquois.

All in all, I am happy to hold off until after we discover Iron to pursue this purchase(it's what I had originally intended). Maybe it will go down in price even more.
 
As far as the Worker goes, I honestly don't feel that a half-speed worker in Despotism is worth our gold. So unless there is some vocal opposition to this, I will not even post a poll.
 
Also, we cannot trade for Alphabet at this time, so Mysticism is the only purchase opportunity we have.

I still question the logic of researching a tech that almost everyone else has, but who am I to judge the people? ;)
 
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