MrB1_Emeror Training C3C

Difficulty level: Emperor
Land mass: Standard
Barbarians: Sedentary
AI aggression level: standard
Everything else random
Cultural flips on, diplo victory disabled
Egypt…let´s make it not too hard on first emperor try

Roster:
Mr. Blonde
Belisar
Cubic
Batteryacid

Rules: no exploits, honourable peace

This is thought to be some kind of training game with Belisar as teacher for MM and emperor warfare. Lurkers are welcome to post and comment (although Belisar can be a bit jumpy whe critisised). The First 70 turns already played by me and Belisar in a meeting last Saturday.

Summary of the first 70 turns with some screenshots

Start:
We get a good start with a lux and freshwater nearby, move settler N to avoid tundra tiles.



After some exploring we know the surrounding land…not too bad I would say, a bunch of bonus grassland, some freshwater spots and a second lux are not too bad (the AIs places can hardly be better) still no contact…



First contact…Greece (F...K, I HATE HOPLITES)
He already popped second city in place we planned to shift the palace sometime…maybe later we can.



This is our land to grab. Not too bad, 10-12 cities to fill up between river and coast



Second contact…Sumeria in NW
Hard foe, will probably outexpand us…second target in early MA
No other contacts yet


Meet Byzantines, their land still unknown. Probably got pangea map. First four cities founded, war preparations against Greece start (iron needs to be hooked up first). No horses in known world…weird. Tech: we are even, start Philosophy gamble



Greece gets philosophy 1 turn before we get it, they get writing for free, trade Philosophy immediately and we find ourselves behind in tech race…bad luck

Current situation:


Core land


West of known world


Some cities are to be founded: see dotmap. Priorities: wine city with hooking wines up to network, freshwater city with sugar. Build some more workers in Giza after it grows. War: MPP with Byzantines or Sumeria should distract Greek defence and also distract expansion of our ally (Byzantine 6 cities, Sumeria 7, good land W of Greece to grab for B, spices will probably go to S). Build up 6-8 vet swords (hook up Elephantine) in border cities, then declare war and launch attack on Sparta. Second target is either Corinth (easy) or Athens (very hard, but has furs). Punch them until we get all the techs we are behind. Hopefully we get a monopol on CoL.
Notes: we have a healthy core with 2 lux soon online and 2 to grab... will help us a lot when we are in Rep. No horses (we don’t want a golden age now, but we want to have knights soon). Forgot dot for city on second iron. Some cities grow soon…watch happiness.
Good luck for the next player. groucho


The Save

First I'd like to ask for a change of the roster: batteryacid will play before me

Concerning our war plans:
I'm not really sure, we need to draw either Sumeria or Byzantine into our war against the Greek (I take it you want a MA, MPP isn't aviable until Nationalism). Assuming the Greeks have no iron, we will only be fightin Hoplites (which will mostly remain in the cities or perhaps try to pillage in our lands), warriors and perhaps horseman, nothing our swordsmen can't deal with.

Both other civs allready have 6-7 cities, by allowing them to capture some greek cities we would make them unneccessarily stronger. And we will have to fight them too one day, no?

Just my thoughts

Hi- yesterday some trouble with my internet occured- will download safe now and play this night before Pool-GAK and will try to fix the net problem- perehaps cubic can then play his turns directly after mine- so the plan: 6-7 swords in these two cities, 1 settler and 1-2 additional workers- should I insert some spears? Whats the plan with trading- nothing I suppose since we want to get the techs with peace negotiations.- next city: wine city (on coast or not? or the citiy next to the byzantines? (would take longer, would be unstable since also near the greeks)

IMO we should get the wine asap, because Memphis will grow next turn and will require further lux to prevent rioting. I'd go with MrB and settle off the coast, also reduces overlap with Pi-city.
The next spot depends on how the war develops. If you can put enough pressure on the Greeks settling on the western spot (near the two sugar canes) and going for the spices might be an option. It might also open up a trade route with the Sumerians, just in case.
Regarding spearmen: I would only build them if the war goes bad and you need quick defence against a counterattack. Otherwise 2 swords > 3 spears for our purposes, no?

I suggested the spear only to built in cities without barraks (like our capitol who is building it because it´s too small for a settler now). i think that the spices are too far away to go for it now- but I think it will be a question after our 20 turns, cubic

So, I played my turns but was unable to put it on th net due to network troubles. This is what happened :

Scouting:
Warrior in the southwest found another goody hut, popped (greek warrior was close to popping), 4 barbs, our warrior lost, the rest iof the pack is south of the most west greek city

Warrior->warrior in Pi, sent the warrior scouting, found another iron on the coast near our Wine city, scouted to North end of continent: No ai there, but uneasy terrain, warrior still there for further scouting

Tech/Domestic: Lux now 30, research 60 (at 70 research we have 2 happy, 1 content, at 60 3 h, 3 unhappy in Memphis), 6 turns to CoL
5 Swords (all in Memphis)

AI: All AIs are 3 techs ahead, Sumer has he oracle, England the colossus, Greeks built another city at the tile nw, w of our suggested city site at the river

Workers: All cities are now connected , worker built in giza (had to hire a scientist for one turn because city was not yet connected – saved us 1 turn in research) 1 turn away of connecting Pi, this one should connect our wines asap, another worker improves the BG of Alexandria, the other builds road from Elephantine to Memphis and should improve the last BGs there-
Cubic: build next worker in Giza for Irrigation chain to cow (are only 2 tiles to Thebes which is on freshwater )

Settler: 3 turn away from our wine city, warrior is on the way from NE for protection

Memphis, which is 1 turn away of building the next sword OR the next settler OR a temple (lux rate?

I would be for temple (to get to max research), because Thebes has granary and will built settler- couldn´t help loosing production in Thebes- spear would have cost us some turns in the production of our next settler, sword even more, so I went straight for the next settler which is 4 turns away, (loose 2 turns production there) we would loose nothing switching in Memphis to settler and in thebes to sword BUT ; thebes; no barracks, Memphis; no grananry)

So: the discussion: go for Temple, max research and trade CoL for the rest of the techs? Or do we wait for them ´til the negotiatons with the greek?
Or: Go for Sword, and attack the greek (have 6 swords then, should be enough for the city next to us, he might still lack some defensive units because he built another city

Got the save but propably won't be able to play until friday.

OK, here're my turns:
[Preturn]

Memphis: Sword -> Temple
Pi: Temple -> Curragh

Diplo Check: Everyone known is 4 techs ahead of us (Math, Lit, MM, Polytheism) and their armies are as stron as ours

[#1, 925 BC]

Memphis finished temple -> Sword
Elephantine: Sword -> Sword
Lux -> 20, Sci -> 70: CoL in 4 @ -3

Moved one Spear from Memphis to Eleph and one Warrior the other way, so both bored cities are equally defended

Moved Settler towards Wine City place

Worker: build road to Giza
other worker finished mine near Alex, move to next BG

[#2, 900 BC]

Worker mines BG near Alex
Heliopolis: Sword -> Settler
MM Alex for production: Worker in 1

[#3, 875 BC]

Heliopolis finished Settler -> Worker
Alex finished worker -> Temple

Sci -> 50%, CoL still in 2 @ -1

Diplo: Still nobody knows Col

Move 6 Swords towards greek border

[#4, 850 BC]

Found Wine CIty -> Temple

Declear war on Greece and move swords towards Sparta

[T5, 825 BC]

Get CoL -> Republic @ 10% (not faster until 90% Sci) and +14 gpt
Lux -> 10%

Thebes finishes Settler -> Spear
Gizea finished worker -> Spear

Captured a greek worker

Move settler S in direction of the iron source

[T6, 800 BC]

Memphis: Sword -> Sword
Pi: Curragh -> Temple
Heliopolis: Worker -> Spear

Worker: road tile E of Alex

Curragh explores N

Attack on Sparta: our vet Sword loses straight against reg Holpite, next one defeats it, but gets redlined -> We capture Sparta (3 resistors) -> Temple

Sumerians nearly have CoL, price just dropped from 2 techs + all their gold to one tech + 10g, I decide to trade it:
Byzanz: CoL for Math, Lit, 5g
Sumeria: CoL for 10g (They wouldn't trade tech and it's all gold they have)

Diplo Check: Sumeria and Byzanz (and propably Greece) are ahead Currency, Constr, MM, Poly and they all are in monarchy

[T7, 775 BC]

Sparta: quelled two resistors, strave the city
leave redlined Sword in Sparta, move rest towards Athens

Sci -> 90%: Rep in 34 @ -1 gpt

[#8, 750 BC]

Sumeria wants 22g and gets it, one foe is enough for now
Mongols finish ToA

Sci -> 80%: Rep in 37 @ +/- 0

kill two greek warriors, one of our swords is redlined

Worker mines BG NW of Heliopolis
Workers finish road to Wine City, road wine hill

Elephantine: Sword -> Sword

[#9, 730 BC]

Founf El-Amarna near iron in the south -> Temple and discover spices nearby
Lux -> 20% to prevent rioting in Memphis (Rep in 37 Q -1)

[#10, 710 BC]

Move more troops towards Athens (Mission2Athens, eh?), you want at least 5 Swords before attacking

Sci -> 70% (Rep in 37 @ -1)

[Summary]

We seem to have an edge over Greece, only warriors and archers on counterattacks so far. This war should give us the thechs to push us straight into the Middle Age. There's land in the far north, may be woth sending the curragh there to explore. Also a next city is to be founded N, settler is allready in place. Spearmen are only placeholders, next player is free to change them.

Our Empire:


Good Luck !

The Save

Got the save Good work, hope we will catch up in tech race soon (will beat techs out of the greeks). Will play today, will probably post tomorrow evening or mon before noon. Do Byzantines or Sumer know other civs?

Preturn: 8 Swordsmen, average to greece, strong to others. Knossos on spices...not too bad for us

Summary: Take Athens and Delphi, lose 2 Swords, kill 5 Hoplites, 3 Archer, 2 Warriors. Build Barracks in Heliopolis and start to build swordsmen there. 3 cities are now building swords, we have now 9. Build up groups in Athens and Memphis or Alexandria (started to build way from Memphis to Alexandria) Archer stands near Memphis, will attack next turn (Sword and warrior defending), 2 warriors near 3 of our swords, will probably attack and lose. We are strong against all of our neichbours.
Currently Greece will trade 2 of 4 techs, take Corinth, Pharsalos and Thermophylae at least before negotiating, we will probably get 4 techs and spice city. Rep not out yet, we will take 21 turns at 70%; -2 gpt currently with 20% lux.
Very important: Get 2 lux from former greek cities online; with spice we would have 5 lux (should be enough for a long time). We have now 7 workers - start building ways in core (after hooking up lux) for time we will be in Rep. We should start libraries or marketplaces in core cities for near future.
After Greek war we have to attack Sumer with Byzantines, they are leading in EVERY category. FP should be started soon.
How many cities do we want to found? (Suggested ones on map)

Edit: Belisar is up, if he does not respond until Tuesday evening, batteryacid is up. Good Luck



Here is the SAVE

A few suggestions, just from the screen shots:

1) You should still be throwing at settlers at this point. You have a good start, but there is alot of land left to fill.

2) Alot of spearman being built. 2 warriors is worth more then 1 spear, and cost the same number of shields, and with Swordsman in the game, you have a spearman with +3 attack. I would build swordmans only, at least until Pikes come in. Just something to think about.

3) How many workers do you have so far? At this level of play you should have 2 per a city... isn't as important as settlers, so use population for that first, but workers should be a huge priority.

4) I don't see any swords next to your city names. Should start building barracks in cities with 5+ shields.

Good job MrB beating up the Greeks!
I agree with alerum68, we should found as many cities as possible, otherwise the AI will do it. I suggest, we hop from one oasis to the next in the central desert, perhaps this way we can keep the Sumerians at bay.
IIRC thers's a fair spot at the eastern coast (iron, BG). The NE tip of the continent doesn't look too promising, but who knows which resources may be in the jungle (and we can still clear it later!).
Concerning the Greeks: Do they have a run-down city, we can leave them with at the end (somewhere in the tundra or in the mountains)? We don't want to eliminate them (at least not now) since they reduce the prices of techs, but they should be under control for the rest of the game!
Ad spearman: 2 warriors may cost the same shield-wise, but spears need only half the support (might become important when we're in republic) and they upgrade to pikes -> muskets ->etc OTOH 2 warriors have 2x hitpoints and make 2 people happy (again not in rep) *scratches head*

Nice turns, really.
I would say we fill the gap up to north to the jungle(should be 4 cities or so), take at least 3 more greek cities to get the spices. We should built then workers in our cow city amass. The question is: When to start the war against the sumers- before or after we are in republik? We could then cash rush, but we really really really need market places in all our core cities. For the greeks: the question is: how many more swords do we built- or should we start prebuilts for our market places? Don´t forget to connect more wines-We should then have extra wines for our alliances against the sumers.

As for who is to play the next turns: I bet one beer that it will be me and not belisar - anybody there to bet against me ??

At the moment it will take us 21 +1 turns to become a republic, the war against the Greek should be over until then. Since we won't need swords against the Sumerians (they will have pikes or even musketmen by then) I wouldn't build them any more if we have only few losses (the other greek cities shouldn't be too heavily defended).
My suggestion: Beside temples in all our cities we should build settlers and workers until we get currency. Building up some culture won't hurt against the Sumerians and as allready mentioned, there's still some space to fill.

To be discussed: When do we attack the Sumerians? With five luxuries online and some marketplaces a war in republic should be no problem. What do we want to achieve? Do we have horses for knights? Also getting in contact with the other civs in the world sould be a top priority. I suggest building additional curraghs or galleys and doing some exploring. Same applies for the NE of our continent, there might still be some godd city spots there!

First of all, the spear in Alexandria was pop rushed just to be safe (2 Archers came there, took the first down with my sword). Memphis spear is filler 1 settler is on place in 2 rounds. Before starting pumping settlers, we need ways to the N and cities in the NE will have to grow. Cities building swords now and greek cities will be our commercial core after war - libraries and marketplaces are a must to build. Corruption will make cities in the N very corruptive, their foundation costs us a lot resources. Build way to N, start 1-2 settlers in Abydos and wine city, after peace start building up core for Rep and stat new settlers to fill space in N and E (line Delphi-Knossos-Sea as border?) Land in N is rough and needs workers to be productive (we are ind, though). Anyhow, we don´t know if Sumer has Iron... I just saw 1-2 Archers.
With so much land to fill I´m curios if our 4 unknown opponents are stuck on a small continent (Sumer has 17, we have 16% land mass already...more than 35 if we fill up space and take greek cities) Luckily Sumer expands to the W and probably collides with Byzanz there.
Anyhow good luck for the next player

There's nothing to add to the comments made so far. I have a wish thought, if its possible could the start save be posted so people could shadow the game to see how well they fare when compared to the obsiviously talented group here.

Cubic said:

Ad spearman: 2 warriors may cost the same shield-wise, but spears need only half the support (might become important when we're in republic) and they upgrade to pikes -> muskets ->etc OTOH 2 warriors have 2x hitpoints and make 2 people happy (again not in rep) *scratches head*

Click to expand...

Correct, more units means more cost when you're republic, but at Emperor level you'll probably go for Monarch first, which means you get all the benfits of Republic, without WW, and just a bit more corruption. You hit on a key point, that they make 2 people happy. In Monarchy you can pay 1 gold for that warrior, and he can keep your cost down in luxury by not having to raize your lux slider when reduces your gold MUCH more. Also, when you're facing an assault, a warrior will fall abotu 50% more of the time, but if you have 2, then you'll keep the city. If the spear is attacked and killed, you won't have that second warrior for backup, and the city will fall.

Now if you play on going Republic, it's still a good iea to build them because MDI have +1 attack, but -1 defense on pikes... No brainer in my mind... attack in this game is more important than defense... especially with cats in the picture.

In general terms I agree with you. But in this game we're going straight for republic and we have enough luxuries to keep our people happy for some time. That just leves the 2nd-unit-may-survive-factor that speaks for two warriors (in this game). It doesn't look like the Greeks will do at lot of counterattacks in this war, so our cities should be relatively safe.
As for MDI: Instead of upgrading our defending warriors to MDIs for an attack I'd rather build knights and upgrade the denending spears later when we've the money. (Is upgrading worth it btw? Or is it more cost effective to disband the spear and use the shields and the money saved to build a pike?)

It depends on version, which unit is being upgraded, and if you have Leo's. It's ALWAYS cheaper to upgrade then disband and reinvest in shields because you don't get your original 30 shields back, only 1/3 or so. But building one from scratch in a highly productive city is normally quicker, and cheaper then upgrading in Conquest. I believe the ratio is 2 gold to 1 shield. So a unit that cost 60 shields to build from scratch will cost you 120 gold to upgrade... The most cost effective way IMHO is to start building a unit, getting about 10% of it built, then rushing the rest for a fraction of the upgrade cost.

Notice no one has official claimed it yet... who's next?

Here is what happened in my turns (sorry, forgot the savegame at home- but if Cubic wants to play today I will see what I can do)

First the bad news: I played 11 turns (sorry, but in the heat of the battle I forgot to count), Oracle, Lighhouse , Library and Mausolos are away, I oversaw the spices in the tundra (should print the pictures next time before going home) and hooked up second iron instead (should do for trading for alliance against the sumers)

Good news: Corinth is ours (really ugly battle, we lost a whole lot of swords against his 3 hoplites, but he lost also a bunch of archers -5 or more- due to "gifted" AI moving.)

Termopylae is ours - we lost only 1 sword there against 2 hoplites and 1 archer- Alexander nearly ready to give us 4 techs for peace

The luxes are on the way up to be connected (well, the Temple in Athens is 20 or more turns away, I built a worker there first because I thought it would be faster to connect the dyes in the south, didn´t know that it would produce a slave worker , we lost no production in this city though)

Settler 1 turn away to found oase city (the one in the north with three oases- a bit risky I know), founded the city west of wine city, another settler there to fill the other gap, we have now a lot of space north of termopylae (hate this city name really) for new cities (2-3 I would guess, perehaps we should built a settler there)

A lot of workers are now working core tiles and connecting our northern cities and the luxes

Rep. 9 turns away (had to put science one down for 3 turns due to cash troubles- can´t make a deficite like in real life- should perehaps be implemented in Civ 4 ), I started Libraries in our core cities- they are thought as prebuilds for marketplaces and swords- I have the feeling that we will need some more against the greeks

And: our palace has now a nice green field in front- we should vote if for football games or for sacrifying virgins to please our war god

So: Screenshots and savegame will follow tomorrow (or today if I can get them to cubic somehow)

The Save