Citizen Discussion: Reinstate the 'Traditional' powers of MA and CM?

Military:
Can supercede a provincial build queue with military units or improvements during time of invasion.

Culture:
Can supercede a provincial build queue with cultural improvements under certain circumstances.

Seeing as these 'traditional' powers were not in DG4, and somehow made it back to this DG, do you think they should stay as standard powers for both the Military Minister and Cultural Minister?

Weeee - let's IGNORE THE PEOPLE! Dictators forever!

No, no, and, ummm, NO!

The powers of persuasion and reasoning are far too often not used. This is nothing more than an excuse for one leader trampling over the rights of another leader. If you can't persuade a person why YOUR idea is better, you should have the right to unilaterally change it for them?

Come on - those clauses in DG2 were a joke and were, and are, totally against the ideals of a Democracy game.

They were removed in DG3. They were removed in DG4. And we kept 'em in the trash can of the dark ages where they belong. Keep the duties as they are.

-- Ravensfire

The governors of said cities should be able to recognize a threat whether cultural or militaric (It's not like governors never played civ before). The culture minister and military minister could give advice.

I do consider the Governors setting the buildqueues the least democratic in priciple. Of course some Governors discuss buildqueues openly, but they have the power to be dictators of buildqueues.

Overriding them by then Military or the Cultural minister is, however, a move in the wrong direction.

ravensfire said:

Weeee - let's IGNORE THE PEOPLE! Dictators forever!

No, no, and, ummm, NO!

-- Ravensfire

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Absolutely correct, on ALL accounts in the post. :great:

And BTW this first post in this thread is very wrong, there is nothing in the constitution giving those powers to either of those ministers, it was an invention of Chieftess and noone else.

Personaly, I beleve that the clauses are kind of unnessicery. Simply put it, eather the Culture Minister or the Military Minister can simply request build orders to the govenors.

If you cannot cooperate with the Governor as a MA, you have nothing in a Demogame to do. Yet, we should be very careful of electing the wrong governor.

Since I think I actually came up with those rules a long long time ago, I will comment on the reasons for them.

In the case of the military advisor being able to supercede the instructions of the governors during an invasion was simply a way to insure solidarity of strategic production during times of war. Governors are sometimes capable of wanting their cities to grow regardless of anything else, and production of troops slows that growth down. As has been stated, cooperation is also a solution to this potential problem.

In the case of the culture advisor being able to override build queues under certain circumstances, this was an effort to give the culture advisor some sort of real power. I believe the circumstances were limited to a situation where a border city is losing a culture battle that is very winnable with a foreign city. Obviously time is of the essence in this situation, and so this power was granted. I think it might have been used once. Again though, cooperation is another solution.

It makes no difference to me either way, but I figured I would show the reasons behind those 'traditions'.

Eyrei- I used that power considerably in DGI and DG2, which I am more then willing to admit, though not flaunt. Should we ressurrect these powers they must be put under the enduring watch of the people. Perhaps, the two Ministers could post a poll requesting that the people themselves vote to change the queues, btu by no means should this power belong to the Ministers themselves and alone. That is, as Ravensfire suggests with certain characteristic hyperbole, undemocratic as it personalizes power in relatively unaccountable bodies. However, if this power is as I suggest simply the initionation of a poll by the Ministers which the people must ratify before taking effect, then it meets the generally accepted criteria of being both democratic and subject to appropriate checks and balances. I urge people to oppose any concentration or centralization of power in the hands of any body save the people themselves.

We settled on, I think at least, a system of "National Plans" (A system I would put into place as Domestic Minister), which was never used for this. Basically, rather than give the Military and Culture direct control, the Domestic Minister starts a thread where they can go and call for production changes. Any particularly large ones would have to pass by the people first, making them National Plans and compulsory. Even then, however, it would be up to the governors as to what cities did what. Here's how it would work:

-Military or Culture starts a discussion on changing build queues for national interest purposes.
-Discussion moves onto a poll to determine if they should have power to override the current queues in this instance.
-If the poll passes, the project becomes a "National Plan" the Military or Culture advisor posts a quota in the National Plan thread. Military, who would use this for mobilizing, would for example post how many samurai were needed. Culture would post the wonder wanted and its shield value. Both of these would have a prefered completion date.
-Then the governors would choose what cities to change the queues for. This way it would be up to them, rather than an advisor, to spread the burden around and fit it in best with their current plans.

I'm thinking of taking this and making it a law right now, and certainly I'll take the necessary steps if elected Domestic Advisor. This is why we need a law system. These things are just too complex to be amendments, we need laws. I should restart that....

I liek that idea epimethius. Not perfect, but as a whole it's not bad.

The challenge of letting the Domestic minister be in charge of these plans, is very person dependent, which means as a law. this would exclude domestic minister candidates with a more brief style. The proposal has some merit, but would be dangerous if tailor made for certain personality types as the sole candidates to administer such a system.

dont reinstate the powers, well atleast not for ma(ca possibly) the ma already has lots of power he/she needs no more

Under certain circumstances, and if we define those circumstances. Yes re-instate those powers.

I say we allow the Cultural minister to over-ride a govonors build queue if he/she can prove that the city is in danger of flipping (you need solid proof and to show it).

The cultural minister should also be incharge of wonder placement, polling wether we should build a wonder and researching possible cities inwhich we can build it in.

The Military Advisor should also be allowed to over-ride/rush a defensive unit if they can prove that the city is a strategic advantage and is in danger of being taken.

If they can prove that the city is in either physical or spritual danger, than I see no reason why they can't over ride them.

Strider said:

Under certain circumstances, and if we define those circumstances. Yes re-instate those powers.

I say we allow the Cultural minister to over-ride a govonors build queue if he/she can prove that the city is in danger of flipping (you need solid proof and to show it).

The cultural minister should also be incharge of wonder placement, polling wether we should build a wonder and researching possible cities inwhich we can build it in.

The Military Advisor should also be allowed to over-ride/rush a defensive unit if they can prove that the city is a strategic advantage and is in danger of being taken.

If they can prove that the city is in either physical or spritual danger, than I see no reason why they can't over ride them.

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I agree with Strider here. If there is a bluntly apparent danger and the governor is too blind/busy/ignorant to see it, then power should be given to someone else who can fix the problem before it becomes one.

no, that is the job of the citizens, not an arbitrary cabinet member.

I agree with Ravensfire, Zarn, Rik Meleet, Immortal, CivGeneral, Provolution, Black Hole, and.... I'm not sure what Civanator thinks....

If we are going to make ANY kind of compromise on this very baaad proposal for a law, I would suggest that Governors also be allowed to change the Instructions of the Military Department and the Cultural Department. That would make things fair, I think. Hey, we could just make it so anyone that is allowed to post instructions, can change anyone else'e Instructions. You know, we could keep it fair, like Curfinwe wants, but let's not restrict it to just a couple of offices. Let's do it right.

Nah, I'm just pulling yer leg. The whole idea of anyone trashing someone else's Instructions is a very baaad idea and should be trashed itself.

No changing other's Instructions by any means or by any restrictions/criteria or subject to any checks and balances. It's just the wrong thing to do. VOTE NO.

The President, who should be tracking our national interest anyway, already has sufficient power to keep us from going off the deep end. It is as simple as stopping play until appropriate instructions are posted. No further powers are needed.

they dont need more power, so why give it to them?? MAYBE when we get nationalism the MA might have the power to conscript a citizen if an enemy unit is NEXT to the city and there is a very real danger of that city falling, but anything else is to much.

they dont need more power.

I need more power.

BTW: What happens when we reach nationalism?? Who gets to choose the ifs and whens of any conscription in the cities??

(im a demogame newbie)

OK then... I forgot about presidential powers. I now think that the president or citizens, or perhaps even the judiciary should be able to change production in an advent of an emergency. I'm not proposing any system or checks or anything but I do believe that we need to avert disaster by having bad governors run things. We could possibly have the president or DM ask the citizens to change the build que in events of emergency. I know this will present problems with questioning authority and such, but this power can only be used in times of war and when the city is directly under siege.