Should 'black-clicking' be allowed?

Should 'black-clicking' be allowed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 52.2%

  • No

    Votes: 22 47.8%
  • Total voters
    46
Duke of Marlbrough

Duke of Marlbrough

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Should 'black-clicking' be allowed in the GOTM?

An example of it is:
To black-click, right click on an unexplored square. Then look at the info panel to your right, under the map. You should see:
Loc: (##, ##,) ##

The two numbers in parentheses indicate the grid coordinates of that square. However, this is not the "magic" of black-clicking.

Take a look at that third number. If it is:
1--It is usually an ocean square.
2-62--It is a land square on an island or continent. Each land square that is connected to another land square is considered part of that landmass, and all squares in the same landmass share this number. Different numbers indicate that the squares being compared are parts of different landmasses.
63--It is usually a 1-square "lake" surrounded by land squares.
Click to expand...

I saw somewhere a graphical explination of it as well, but can't remember where, anyone else know?
 
There are many issues in Civ II where an investment of time can lead to better game success. Black clicking is one of those. I personally choose not to do it because I think it's fun to experience the fog of war; but it seems clearly to have been a technique envisioned by the game designers. And the clincher for me is that it does not necessarily give precise answers - it gives partial information which can be helpful in the hands of a skilled player.
 
The more I think about the more I'm torn. I think it shouldn't be allowed because it gives information that otherwise wouldn't be available.

However, then I think about other things that are allowed, such as Caravan rehoming, which was obviously not something the programmers intended.

So, I'm actually thinking about Caravan Rehoming as well.
 
I personally do not use black clicking, it just doesn't seems right to me, to close to reveal map.

Caravan rehoming should be out too, I for one cannot rehome a caravan anyway, is it is not possible in my version, so by default should be dissallowed as it creates an unfair advantage.
 
I don't have a problem keeping black clicking because it's too hard to eliminate. It's right there in your face the whole game. What if I happen to inadvertently click and see land 3 squares away from shore? Or even if I click and see that a square is NOT land - that's information too. Even without black clicking, what if I have discovered 2 land areas separated by black and notice they have the same number (telling me that they are connected, even though I have not explored in between)? Do I have to disqualify myself if any of these occur? It's too hard to get around the fact that the continent number is right there on your screen all game, especially after years of training myself to look there for information. Plus the Continent 1 issue certainly adds an element of risk to relying on the information.

Others have made additional arguments for why it should stay (e.g., Andu) in the other thread as well.

(Rehoming on the other hand should go. The developers took away the option on one menu, but did not take it off another. There appears to have been an attempt to remove this from the game mechanics, they just botched it up.)
 
While I realize that the GOTM is score-based, and that early conquest may be enhanced by black-clicking, I believe that you will not be able to legislate it away from happening. If this rule passes and becomes "law", some players may still use it to gain an upper hand. There is no way for anyone checking the game files to ascertain whether the technique had been used, so why disallow it?

Personally, I do not believe that I have ever black-clicked in a GOTM or in a personal game. I have located a city (using the Find City command) where a WOTW has been built, and found that opponent as a result. Is that breaking any rules?
 
To me it is tedious and unreliable, so I use it rarely and seek to confirm anything I learn another way. Tim's (and Andu's) challenges make sense to me, and I think proving a "cheat" would be difficult. It may not have been deliberately put in for player use (programmers often put that kind of thing in during debugging, then forget to take it out or do not see how it could be exploited), but it is available to all who learn about it. The "rules" you list at the beginning of this thread are not even definitive - sometimes I've seen larger "inland" lakes given separate continent numbers, and there is one "island" that always gets the #1 as well.

Rehoming caravans is another matter. It can be detected by the enormous amount of gold and beakers reaped from rehoming everything to the SSC/STC, and seems like the game mechanics attempt to block it (although not completely in some versions). I do not rehome as a matter of habit, even in CFC GOTMs where it is currently permitted.
 
The main point is that it is virtually impossible to determine if someone uses black-clicking. It is silly to have a rule that cannot be inforced, so let's leave black-clicking legal. Besides, it is so tedious to use, that anyone who does the whole map has already been "punished" by the time invested for so little return.

The only time I have used the method is exploring with triremes. When all else fails, clicking the fourth hex out from your land is safer than sending your trireme off into the blue. And, yeah, I have used it inadvertantly when centering the map. just by doing that will give you info on the hex you click. As an example, if you have discovered two land masses several hexes apart and wish to view the known map and click on a hex midway between them. You get info on that hex. Is that to be considered cheating if black-clicking is made illigal?
 
I think that anyone who wants to spend the time to "black click" or to open up the map editor and find the hut-patterns or find optimal starting positions, or whatever, should be allowed to do so.

Personally, I don't do it, as for me, it takes the fun away from the game. I just like to 'play' the game. OK, I'll use some of the techniques discovered in these threads to improve my gameplay (not much though), but really I just play the game.

So I vote "yes".
 
I never did it, although it can help sometimes a lot - especially for triremes, but the same for the total strategy of your game. For me it is very similar as reveal all map. It makes game boring.

The player who is black clicking has good advantage. Of course we cannot check if somebody is doing it, but we cannot check any other rules too.

so I voted NO.
 
After a quick check, it appears that a "left" click will center the map and not yield info. :blush: The current active unit info remains on the info box in this case.
 
I voted no, because part of the fun for me is the early exploration part. I am persuaded, though by the arguments that normal actions might reveal back-click type information. If the code permits it, then we should allow it , even if it might not be what the game developers envisioned. As for caravan re-homing, I think it should be allowed, for the same tyoe of reasons. I Often re-home a caravan to the city where I parked it awaiting the building of a wonder in order to keep it from being lost if barbarians were to capture it's original home city. While we are at it, I like to see airbases on hills. The results are wonderful, and who is to say that it did or did not serve some strategic function?
 
Originally posted by Ace
The main point is that it is virtually impossible to determine if someone uses black-clicking. It is silly to have a rule that cannot be inforced, so let's leave black-clicking legal.
Click to expand...
I am with golem: not a good argument for me. The game allows also to switch in the cheat mode, to reveal all the map and to reload back... or you can reload hut and combat outcomes. All these things are not detectable. Do you wish to allow them?
KingWilly says Yes, but that sounds horrible for me.

Originally posted by geofelt
...normal actions might reveal black-click type information.
Click to expand...
I think you can adopt some habits to prevent it:
1. Right click on black area - reveals continent number - not to look at that continent number in the status window when you are focused in black.
2. Double click on revealed area - reveals cities (terrain help is not shown on a city) - don't double click in unknown areas
3. Left click on black or revealed area - reveals cities (map is not centered on a city) - center map by the right click only

And IMHO rules shouldn't be taken extremely seriously. If a player inadvertently breaks a rule that gives him only a small advantage then he should continue in play IMHO.

One of reasons against allowing black clicking is that it de facto asks the player to do ridiculous things like to spend one hour by localising AIs in 3800BC.

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Even without black clicking, what if I have discovered 2 land areas separated by black and notice they have the same number (telling me that they are connected, even though I have not explored in between)? Do I have to disqualify myself if any of these occur?
Click to expand...
I think it should be legal. It is normal to compare visible continent numbers - you need to know them when estimating caravan revenues for example.
 
SlowThinker said:
I am with golem: not a good argument for me. The game allows also to switch in the cheat mode, to reveal all the map and to reload back... or you can reload hut and combat outcomes. All these things are not detectable. Do you wish to allow them?
KingWilly says Yes, but that sounds horrible for me....
QUOTE]
And therein lies the real rub....This game is played on the honor system. If someone wants to cheat, he/she will, and in the above instances, it is impossible to detect it. No, I believe using the cheat mode to reveal the map, and reloading the game to get a different hut/combat outcome is cheating and should not be allowed. But I still maintain that taking the time to "black click" the map is so time consuming, that the task itself is punishment enough for anyone who does it. And, more importantly, the rewards are not worth the effort. The only immediate benefit is not losing a trireme sailing off into the unknown. That is the only time I do use the system (and it does seem like cheating....), and many times it is not necessary to do that because telltale signs often tell you is land is in the next hex. Anyway, my point is that if a person wants to expend the time and energy to "black click" the map, let them. I don't think it yields that much of an edge.
Click to expand...
 
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