To arms?

blackheart · Sep 16, 2004

Should we invade Rome? When, how, allies, etc.

Feudalism is coming up fast, so are the Roman's ability to get iron. Swordmen have no real advantage over Roman spearmen though, so it would be a pretty even match. Samurai however, would more than be a match for them.

My personal opinion is that we should wait for samurai then hit them with everything we got. Raze their cities and pillage their lands :ar15:

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Black_Hole · Sep 16, 2004

i have said this 1,056,342,333 times:
wait until we get chivalry!

Civman2004 · Sep 16, 2004

I say start the assault with swordsmen, then upgrade with samurai for the second wave muahahahaha

snipelfritz · Sep 16, 2004

I'm definately with BH on this one. Wait. A premature war would slow our science distract our cities' production and deplete our tresury. A samuri war could be quick simple and clean.

Cyc · Sep 17, 2004

Well, I posted quite a while ago that we should allow Rome to declare War on us. :mischief:

We can attack with Swordsmen and Horsemen, fortify with Spearmen. Taking Roman cities will increase our gpt, our Culture, and speed us along towards Chivalry. When we get Samurais, we should have decided in which direction to go next. We are waiting too long for war.

invy · Sep 17, 2004

I also think we are waiting too long. Swordsmen can kill Spearmen, trust me

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Second wave of Samurai will probably clean the Rome completely.

Samurai's are expensive and it will take too long to wait, and our science is not going great because we have too many units.

Use Samurai for Zulu or Babs if you really want to.

MOTH · Sep 17, 2004

Now. Lets get bigger by taking some more land before triggering our golden age. Once we do have Samurai the golden age will allow us to build up the captured cities quicker to generate additional culture.

Ginger_Ale · Sep 17, 2004

Here are some chances via the combat calculator:

If we have a veteran swordsman attacking a regular fortified Spearman in a city/walled town on grassland, the chances we have to win are: 55.4 - 44.6. Not very high I'd say. Also, if their Spearman get to veteran status, that'll make our live not too pleasant. If we use a Samurai instead of a swordsman, our chances go up +15%!

I say wait until samurai, not only so we have better chances, but because if we attacked now, and did a second wave of samurai, we wouldn't have as many swordsman to upgrade because of casulties.

Edit: Just realized Horses upgrade to samurai. Another reason to wait for war. We don't have many horses yet. :mischief:

Rik Meleet · Sep 17, 2004

No war yet.
I know swords can kill spears, but spears do kill swords as well. Such a war could lead only to either 1 of 3 things (depending on how we do it).

1 - Very slow advance due to low numbers of units, if any advance at all, and dragging us and Rome into a long war where all other nations can build up, except us and Rome.
2 - A build up phase of swords first and after that a strike. Still slow and we are stuck with unupgradable swords with Samurai just around the corner.
3 - A build up phade with horsies and strike with them. It is faster and we won't loose very many units. But if we are going to do that; why take a risk to waste a 2-1-2 unit when a 4-4-2 is just around the corner and the 2-1-2 can be upgraded to it ????

Stuck_as_a_Mac · Sep 17, 2004

Wait. Build horses and swords, mainly horses. Wait until we can upgrade.
Then we can attack. Everyone else has laid out the points (combat calc, unit strenght, ect). I'm just repeating them and adding a bit of latin.
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori! (stupid old lie...)(but it works in civ!)

Gregski · Sep 17, 2004

RM is right. we need to use Samurai as they are better in attack, defence and move (very important). Even if the Romans did get pikemen they would not be able to stop us as they would only upgrade a few spearmen. It is critically important to build up a sizeable army as otherwise we will be bogged down in a lengthy war where we have to fight every inch of the way, not forgetting that such a war could leave us wide open to someone else attacking us when our units are far away. Although Horsemen->Samurai upgrade is pricey (80 if I remember correctly), we should be able to afford 5-6 upgrades and build the rest as Samurai. The best part is that Samurai are excellent defenders which does not apply to Swordsmen.

GenMarshall · Sep 17, 2004

No war untill we are fully ready.

blackheart · Sep 17, 2004

I'm glad many people see my point of waiting so we lose less troops and science.

classical_hero · Sep 18, 2004

CivGeneral said:
No war untill we are fully ready.

I agree. But if someone wants to attack then we will have to be ready for that too.

mhcarver · Sep 18, 2004

wait for samurai

Provolution · Sep 19, 2004

Asa Military Advisor, I say wait for Samurai.

Cyc · Sep 21, 2004

I think it's a mistake to have waited. We should attack this t/c. With the Swordsmen we have now, the ones that will be produced soon, and horses being produced instead of Courthouses, we could have Pompeii, Antium, and Neopolis in 12 turns. Then we'd be ready to march on Rome with 10 Swordsmen and Horses.

blackheart · Sep 21, 2004

Roman runner: "The Japanticans are coming! The Japanaticans are coming!"

MOTH · Sep 21, 2004

hmmm, the prez, chief justice, and all 4 governors want war now...

Can any of the "wait for samurai" crowd address some of the concerns of the "swords now" group? Particularly the GPT cost, the potential for Rome to get Iron or Gunpowder, and the lack of sword upgrade issues.

In my analysis none of these are solved by waiting for Samurai and all are being agravated every turn that we build military units. The only advantage I've seen stated is that Samurai have a better chance of winning an individual combat.

Cyc · Sep 21, 2004

MOTH said:
hmmm, the prez, chief justice, and all 4 governors want war now...

Can any of the "wait for samurai" crowd address some of the concerns of the "swords now" group?

Now?

I was talking about it 3 weeks ago in Civanator's thread . That three weeks was the prep time. We should be attacking this Turn Chat.

We are now even with France and the Zulus in Science. We will soon be behind. We need to capture cities and increase our gold intake and our Culture.

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