Oh what a wonderful world!

I realise that it is extremely early to engage in this kind of discussion, and that when the time comes, someone will post a poll, but I want to kick off the inevitable scrap over which wonders we want early.
I have noticed lots of people saying that Literacy would be a good tech to aim for so that we can build the Great Library. What!!! The Great Library may give you a few techs now and again, but it impairs your own tech research to such an extent that another civ may beat you to your target tech and gain a head start on that key wonder. Whether the tech be invention or monotheism, the Great Liibrary can only hinder your progress by giving you lots of techs that you didn't want or need and ensuring that the target tech takes ages to reach, when it would have taken far fewer turns without these unwelcome additions to your tech list. If I want to catch up on techs that I've missed then I find it is far more worthwhile to build Marco Polo's and trade these techs because the cost of having an extra tech is offset by your giving one away and your research doesn't suffer. With Marco's you are also free to gift techs to the purple civ (we're yellow fortunately) and further boost your speed of research. And you get world maps!!!
If you want to use a wonder to boost our techs then the best one is clearly the Colossus. It will have such an enormous impact in its home city (I hope we get an SSC ) that research will be vastly improved, but it also gives a boost to other cities trading with the SSC - lightning quick techs! If we think we can only get one ancient wonder then this has to be the one!!
Well I've set out my stall here and await anyone foolhardy enough to argue in favour of the Great Library as a vital wonder....

if we have a lot of land to settle in i suggest we build the hanging gardens to avoid the 'too many cities unhappiness'. otherwise the collossus that is the best wonder (even if i think we should try to build a ssc somewhere else where we can get higher trade input), or maybe the pyramids. and agree with duke o'york about the great library.

duke, you'll have to realise that some of us aren't really that good at Civ2. I, for one, am now so into Civ3; it's hard for me to reorientate back to Civ2, which I hadn't really played in seriousness for some yrs.
It's nice that you put in the effort to 'enlighten' the rest of us. :enlighten

Plus, this a democracy and the voice of the people will be final. Naturally, a true democracy will also contain peoples of wholly different opinions, views, persuasions .... The idea of the democracy game is to somehow get the whole lot of citizens going in one direction. In spite of their differences.

So you'll have to give us some slack.

Originally posted by animepornstar
if we have a lot of land to settle in i suggest we build the hanging gardens to avoid the 'too many cities unhappiness'. otherwise the collossus that is the best wonder (even if i think we should try to build a ssc somewhere else where we can get higher trade input), or maybe the pyramids. and agree with duke o'york about the great library.

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Pyramids sucks... Hanging Gardens?... Let's see if we got enough cities!...
Michelangelo is a must, when we get it.

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
Plus, this a democracy and the voice of the people will be final. Naturally, a true democracy will also contain peoples of wholly different opinions, views, persuasions .... The idea of the democracy game is to somehow get the whole lot of citizens going in one direction. In spite of their differences.

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Well in that case I'm a one-man pressure group, trying to make people vote in a way that they would not have considered before. This is just like campaigning, and I hope that we're all sensible people here, following the ideas we think are right rather than voting for Hippo because he managed to win the baby-kissing marathon. i'm not trying to make anyone vote for a specific wonder, but just pointing out what my position is a propos the potential list of wonders that will inevitably come up. It's a single-issue campaign, and we all know how well they have done in the past don't we? Green Party anyone? I do want to make it clear that I believe the Great Library is a colossal waste of shields (good pun?) and that Literacy would be an expensive luxury to have as a tech, especially before Monarchy. Monarchy then Trade is the o' york manifesto!

Finally I have access again after some technical difficulties. Thank you to all involved.

I'll go along with the reasoning on the Library stating that it can be a hinderance. It's not unreasonable to think that we will be able to get at least two of the ancient wonders. I think they should be Colossus and Hanging Gardens.

G. Library: We've discussed this one. We can let it go.
Lighthouse: I don't view this as critical. It looks like we will have some land, so overseas exploration may not be needed for a while
Pyramids: Would be nice and all, but by no means critical.
Great Wall: Might be good if we go with an extremely war-like strategy, and would help with the raging barbarians, but I've never been a fan of this one.
Oracle: Generally comes a bit later and is outdone by the hanging gardens.

Those are my thoughts. Enjoy.

You have convinced thi Watcher . It's very important that those of you, who still play civ2, guide us through the decisions and point those hidden rules (for the less experienced) like yellow civ boost its research by giving techs to purple civ.

Anyway, I guess some of us want literacy not for the Great Library. We just want the free tech given by Philosophy. Does that hurt our research rate as well?

Still on hidden rules, isn't there one that says we have 20 turns or so barbarian free, or something like that?

Originally posted by duke o' york
This is just like campaigning, and I hope that we're all sensible people here, following the ideas we think are right rather than voting for Hippo because he managed to win the baby-kissing marathon.

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You think too highly of us. I am a warmongering, inconsistent, just so slightly insane, seclusive Watcher, remember?

I take it you have something against Hippo? Speaking of which, he's surprisingly quiet here.

IMHO, I think we shld expand and build a lot of cities first before even considering building an early Wonder. Then if we have sufficient cities, we can build a few Wonders during the next Age. It will all depend on the outcome fr our current exploration and expansion over the next few turns.

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear enough. I didn't mean that we should never research literacy because, as you say, it is vital for philosophy. I meant that I disagreed with the plan Dreadhead7 posted elsewhere that we should research literacy before monarchy. If we have to wait before we can research monarchy, even when we have the prerequisites, then I would advocate currency rather than literacy. This has nothing to do with the wonders, but I wanted to make it clear that while I consider the Great Library a waste, I still see literacy as an important tech. Unlike horsey riding, but we've already got that.

[edit] I've got nothing against Hippo at all - in fact he's a jolly nice chap and a valuable member of CFC, but his Achilles' heel which leads to his being the butt of some of my jokes is that he has a funny name. Simple as that. I've got nothing against him, and I doubt he goes round kissing babies in his spare time. The reason that he hasn't posted here that often is because we haven't met any other civs yet!
I also mentioned the fact that this was an early consideration of our potential choice of wonders and that we would not be building one for some time, but wanted to get the Great Library out of the heads of as many people as possible, as early as possible. It may be valuable in Civ 3, but in 2 it can spoil things quite badly.

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
You think too highly of us. I am a warmongering, inconsistent, just so slightly insane, seclusive Watcher, remember?

I take it you have something against Hippo? Speaking of which, he's surprisingly quiet here.

IMHO, I think we shld expand and build a lot of cities first before even considering building an early Wonder. Then if we have sufficient cities, we can build a few Wonders during the next Age. It will all depend on the outcome fr our current exploration and expansion over the next few turns.

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It's somekind of 90 000 year old joke within oldskool -fellows (the first 1 000)

"I've got nothing against Hippo at all - in fact he's a jolly nice chap and a valuable member of CFC, but his Achilles' heel which leads to his being the butt of some of my jokes is that he has a funny name. Simple as that. I've got nothing against him, and I doubt he goes round kissing babies in his spare time. The reason that he hasn't posted here that often is because we haven't met any other civs yet!"

I know. Just j/k.

"I also mentioned the fact that this was an early consideration of our potential choice of wonders and that we would not be building one for some time, but wanted to get the Great Library out of the heads of as many people as possible, as early as possible. It may be valuable in Civ 3, but in 2 it can spoil things quite badly."

You don't sound very ..... democratic. You'll have to be more convincing to this Watcher.

BTW, for a person at 'work', you do have a lot of time to make long posts here. Same as me.

It's somekind of 90 000 year old joke within oldskool -fellows

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Yeah ,and they have a lot of "insider jokes" ,and they seem to appear every 5 thread's on this forum.
Man don't they ever get bored of re-using this jokes? (jokes?)

When you're an accomplished baby stealer , er, kisser such as myself, you don't bother with imbeciles the like of the duke o' nuke. Just watch your step sonny...ask genghis Ask Leowind (neither registered for game! Haha! Can't hit me back! ) The wrath of the clan is brutal and swift in implementation...unless it's dinnertime.

Just wait 'til we meet someone...then the propoganda machine shall role!

And I say we go for the SSC (col, Newt's, and Cop's), Mikeys, and Adam Smiths if nothing else.

I will break the wonders down by era and usefulness, IMO

If the Super Science city is built (And I feel it vital) then, the Collousus, Copericus, and Issac Newton's MUST all be built in the same city for maximum effect.

Anciet wonders:

Colossus-Vital Improves trade arrows and civ sci rate, doesn't expire till flight, a LONG way away. Effect is one of a kind (IE cannot ge gotten with city improvments.

Hanging Gardens-Useful, helps with hapiness problems, but expires, One of a kind effect

Lighthouse-Useful, ships safe from sinking, and in later eras adds a movement point to wooden ships, expires with Magnatism. One of a kind effect

Great Wall-Useful, will keep agressive AI off our backs, but wall effect can be built as ciyy improvement. Expires rather quickly, with Metallurgy

Pyramids-Indifferent, graneries can be built in cities rather cheaply, AI loves to build, advantage is it never expires. We can live without it.

Great Library-Indifferent, often slows research rate by providing to many techs quickly, redundent if SSC is constructed properly, only vital in MP games, not here, effect lost with Electricity.

Oracle-Not needed, most useless of wonders because it's effect is lost quickly by the easy to reach Theology, while it works doubles the effect of temples, but other wonders help more than this useless one.

Renaissance wonders

Michelangelo's Chapel-Vital, provides church in EVERY city (churches cost 6 gold per turn in matenance, a considerable cost), never expires

Copericus's-Vital, in same city as Colussus, for SSC, Never expires

SunTzu's-Useful, with this, we need never waste time and money on barracks, and doesn't expire till Mobile warfare.

Magellan's-Useful, our ships will move much quicker (which also means a firepower improvement, as they can shoot more often), and our trade can span the globe, and it NEVER expires.

Shakespeare'sUseful in SSC, as all excess citizens can be safely converted to scientists without fear of revolt, never expires.

Marko Polo's-Useful, provides contact with other civs, but at Emperor level, other civs will be greedy and hostile, and I'm TOTALLY against providing tech to the AI, especially the Purple civs. Expires with Communism

King Richard's-Useful, helps one city become a production giant, but pollution becomes a problem, expires with industrialization

Industrial age wonders

Leonardo's workshop-Vital, upgrades our units till Automobile, never have to worry about obsolete defenders or settlers, all transformed.

JS Bach's Cathedral-Vital, with this and Mic's, happiness will NEVER be an issue in our lands, never expires (it's effect is universal, despite it saying on this continent)

Adam Smith's-Vital, will provide us with ready cash for rest of game, never expires

Issac Newton's-Vital, in SSC, otherwise useful, will make it possible to discover new tech every 2-3 turns with Republic/Democracy, never expires

Satute of Liberty-Useful, provides for any gov, and no wait for it, vital in wartime, never expires.

Darwin's-Useful, gives two free techs, helps to move quickly into industrial age.

Eiffel Tower-Not needed, build it only for points, reputation is unimportant, as AI will rarely deal with us, never expires.

Modern World

Hover damn-Vital, will help both pollution and production

Seti-Vital, last piece of the science puzzle, big savings, as no research labs needed anywhere

Apollo's-Vital. to end the game peacefully, otherwise useless

UN-Useful, to see what AI is upto, and force peace in war.

Cure for cancer-Useful, with this Happiness is everywhere, will cause WLTL days, for rapid population growth

Woman's Sufferage-Useful, if we are a democracy in game, as units away from cities won't cause excessive unhappiness, effect can be simulated with police stations.

Manhatten Project-Not needed, nukes cause pollution, and the AI loves them, should be avoided.

I have listed these in the order they should be built by era, but some, like Leo's, can be gotten early, and remember, this is just an assesment, my ideas.

You forgot to mention that the Lighthouse makes all ships veteran - a very useful effect that cannot be matched by an improvement until the Port Facility. Otherwise, some good points. I say that Darwin's Voyage can be useful, but if you have been concentrating on tech improvements and have established some lucrative early trade routes then you should be raking in the new techs at a quicker rate than it would take to build the wonder and you could have used the shields for something else. Like erm, defensive units for your city with a library and a university.