A Finnish civilization

Here's something I've been doing in the past week or so. Cut 'n paste from the readme file:

General info on the Finnish civilization:
-----------------------------------------

- Scientific and Industrious
- Leader: C.G.E. Mannerheim
- Special unit: Finnish Infantry (6/12/1)

Includes:

- Civilopedia entries for Finland and Finnish Infantry
- Portraits and animations of Mannerheim
- Install / Uninstall program for quickly switching between normal
Civilization III and this patch.

Note: as of now, this modification replaces the Persians. Until
adding a totally new civilization works 100% without crashes, I
figured this is the better way.

Anyway, here's the URL (the file's a bit too big for an attachment here it seems):

http://webusers.siba.fi/~paaltio/finmod

Also, read the readme file before using the install application; even though you can specify the paths manually, I'd recommend doing like the readme says.

Well, I hope you like it! Have fun.

Thanks paaltio, I'll go to try it out, but what about changing the finnish infantry to finnish hakkapelitos

Originally posted by Huippe
Thanks paaltio, I'll go to try it out, but what about changing the finnish infantry to finnish hakkapelitos

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Heh, well, that is a good option of course, but somehow going with the WW2-based ideas felt more interesting to me. But if someone wants to create that kind of version of this mod, go right ahead.

I think the Unique units is not good enough as you have put it. A measly 20% increase in defense is not much. How about instead giving it a 2 move and call it Ski Infantry. This way it could retreat from slower units, making it more suitable for Winter War surrounding and hit-and-retreat tactics.

It´s of course a bit stupid to have a ski unit when there is almost no snow in Civ3, but Civ2 had Alpine Troops, so what the heck.

Also, I would change the industrious trait to militaristic. Finland has been industrious only for about 50 years, but has been in several wars throughout its history.

Originally posted by Hurricane
I think the Unique units is not good enough as you have put it. A measly 20% increase in defense is not much.

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Well, I had put it much higher before, but then a friend of mine who helped test it pointed out that it was way out of line compared to the other UUs.

And sure enough, there's always at most a 2-point difference even in the newer units like F-15 (or are there exceptions to this?). Sure the percentual change isn't as much as it were if a unique unit added, for example, 1 to the attack of 1, but I just wanted to keep it balanced with the rest of the game. How balanced the game is to begin with, that's not for me to decide. So I just went with the common norm.

How about instead giving it a 2 move and call it Ski Infantry. This way it could retreat from slower units, making it more suitable for Winter War surrounding and hit-and-retreat tactics.

Click to expand...

That's an idea I pondered much, but again, like you pointed out, most of the terrain in Civ3 is anything but snow. I figured the best way to make it fit to the Civ universe was to just state that they can take advantage of the terrain and that's it.

Also, I would change the industrious trait to militaristic. Finland has been industrious only for about 50 years, but has been in several wars throughout its history.

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This is pretty much the same issue as with the hakkapelito question above: what time period to emphasize. I wanted to emphasize the period of independence. It's a relatively short period, so historically speaking it's a bit misguided to emphasize it so much, but I decided to just go with what is fun instead. I usually don't do that, mind you, I'm a horrible nitpicker. But in this case, it just felt it was what I wanted.

However, one could argue even going pre-1917 doesn't warrant the militaristic label, since Finland hasn't been the aggressor (although in the Continuation War it was, so again it's complicated), it's mostly been a issue of Sweden vs. Russia. Of course there are examples of Finnish people recruited as soldiers to fight for Sweden etc. Using this as a definition for militaristic, I think almost all civilizations should be labelled as such, and it would pretty much void the whole concept of meaning.

But however, if you or anyone else sees potential in developing this mod further, I'm all for it. It's just that the holidays are over and I'm again way too busy with my studies, so I won't probably have much time to spend on it. If someone wants to help, I'm more than happy to accept that help.

This is pretty much the same issue as with the hakkapelito question above: what time period to emphasize. I wanted to emphasize the period of independence. It's a relatively short period, so historically speaking it's a bit misguided to emphasize it so much, but I decided to just go with what is fun instead. I usually don't do that, mind you, I'm a horrible nitpicker. But in this case, it just felt it was what I wanted.

Click to expand...

Ok, I see your point and even tend to agree with it, especially since the Swedish Civ also discussed on this board includes pre-1800 Finland. Still, I think a Ski unit would be more fun than the boring Infantry. Perhaps we should call it a Ski/Bike Infantry???

Originally posted by Hurricane


Ok, I see your point and even tend to agree with it, especially since the Swedish Civ also discussed on this board includes pre-1800 Finland. Still, I think a Ski unit would be more fun than the boring Infantry. Perhaps we should call it a Ski/Bike Infantry???

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I believe Jaeger could be the right name for the unit (tough its used by several other nations too). I personally like the idea of Infantry with movement of 2. Personally I don't like the "treat all terrains as road" - feature since it prevents the unit from using railroads I would like to point out also that historically (WWII and earlier) the equipment of Finnish infantry has been what they managed to get their hands to. So, I believe that "no resources needed" could be one option to compose that special unit.

Altough Mannerheim was a great general, Kekkonen would have been my choice for the leader

- Janne Keskinarkaus

I think also that Kekkonen would be better

I'd change that industrious to religious - Finns have always been quite religious and very loyal to their leaders...

...and what comes to the special unit discussion; I'd prefer Hakkapeliitta or just that ski unit. There's always a winter twice in a turn in modern ages...

Mannerheim was surly a better alternative cause he led the finns victorious thrue two wars, while kekkonen havent done anything extra important

Well, nothing important but leading Finland several decades almost like a dictator. (Ever heard of Kekkoslovakia? ) He was also the one, who lifted Finland up from recession after WW2 and the one who finally made good contacts with Russians (Paasikiven linja).
In my opinion Mannerheim was a great -yet fascist- general (due all respect), but not the most important leader of all times. Should Americans then have Eisenhower as their leader?

Originally posted by Malachai
Mannerheim was surly a better alternative cause he led the finns victorious thrue two wars, while kekkonen havent done anything extra important

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Oh... I tought that we lost both wars. But I have to admit that we didn't lose our indepence, but we sure did lose the wars! Remember how the Edvin Laine movie "Tuntematon Sotilas" ends?

Kekkonen did lead Finland for over two decades - with some questionable means sometimes, I admit - but I think he was the true great leader. He lead Finland through the cold war without us losing our indepence (at the same time Eastern Block - countries were under very heavy Soviet influence). If you really think Kekkonen haven't done anything extra important, you really should read Finland's history after the year 1945...

Mannerheim was a great General. He led the Whites through the Civil War and Finlannish Army through two wars against terrible odds in 1939 - 1945. But he lead the country as president - very reclutantly - only for 2 years. Mannerheim was very aristocratic figure and admired greatly the Tsar Nikolai II, who he served before Finland became independent. Yes, he was aristocratic but I really do not think that he was a facist as UKK claimed. Mannerheim did for example deeply despice Hitler.

So my reasoning is that: Mannerheim was a general - a Great Leader for Civ3 but Kekkonen truely led the country for over two decades!

- Janne Keskinarkaus

Ye ur modpack is so goddamn good. I`ve been waiting for Finnish civ to come nad finally its here.
By the way why don`t you check out my home page
Hyvanenaika

Do you happen to know how many Finnish players are registered in Civfanatics ?

Actually, I think that Commercial would be the best civ ability to accompany Scientific and would best reflect Finland in the late 20th century (Nokia anyone?). Okay, it can be argued that Finland is, in a sense, "industrious" (e.g. cruise ships), but I think that the world knows about Finland because of Nokia (if it does know, that is).

Militaristic can't be justified because, as said, it means the nation has a militaristic tradition and has been the aggressor in wars. Yes, Finland was technically the aggressor in the Continuation War, but in the beginning we were taking back what was rightfully ours (i.e. what the Soviet Union had taken it the Winter War). It was only after the reclamation of Karelia and Vyborg that things got out of hand.

The unique unit concept is good, but would need a better name than plain "Finnish Infantry". Jaeger would seem to be the best option right now. And I agree with Janne that Kekkonen should be the civ leader and Mannerheim a great one.

hey does this civ allready work without replacing another?
Otherwise its great! Or can I how shall I fix it myself so it wont replace?

It was a time to get that Finnish civilization

And I think that industious and scientific are the right traits
Industrious because Finnish people have always been hardworking people and scientific because of the Nokia and all those IT companies but we must remember that when Roman Empire was on its top, Finns were in the iron age or was it even the stone age

Anyway, good mod

yeah its a great mod
I allso think that allmost all choses have been the right. Except perhaps that the finnish infantery should have 2 moves instead of 12 defens . Well the finns were at the stone age then....

Yeah we were at stoneage then but hey we caught up with the rest didnt'we

But hey, shouldn't the Finnish infantry unit be called "Korpisoturi". And it should not be translated into English because no English expression can perfectly correspond to our "Korpisoturi"

Thanks, Paaltio! At last Finnish civ! in my opinion, name "korpisoturi" is a good idea because it suits for every period in history. And there are already lots of other non-English warrior names.

Nice! Altough I would have liked to see Kekkonen as the leader! Mannerheim was more than anything a war leader; a general and later a marshal in the Finnish military. But as a president, he served only for 2 years, and I don't think he's really remembered because of that time.

While Mannerheim was a great military leader, Kekkonen was more than anything a political leader. He had more power than any president has ever had and nobody disliked this fact at the time, as he was also propably the most popular president we've ever had. He was re-elected over and over again... And served as a president for 25 years, if I remember correctly!

It should have definetly been Kekkonen.

Lol "Kekkoslovakia"... haha... that "Korpisoturi" is also funny