AI stupidity, or smarter than we thought?

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peso79

Chieftain
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So I'm at war with the neighboring civ, the Persians, in the modern era. While I had something of a tech advantage (I had Mechanized Infantry, they had Infantry), they vastly outnumbered my forces. With plans to wage a defensive war, I placed two or three Mechanized Infantry in the cities closest to the Persian border, not too long before a stack of 20+ Infantry and Immortals started streaming in.

They never attacked my cities.

This confuses me. The Mech. Inf. had a substantial defensive bonus, but there were only two of them. The Persian stacks moved to one square out of my city, then started dispersing into smaller stacks to break up some roads. If they'd all attacked at the same time, they could have easily overwhelmed the Mech. Inf. with the amount of cannon fodder they were bringing along. As it happened, my tanks came along shortly to kill off the smaller stacks, and they were no longer a problem. :tank:

So I see a couple of possible reasons why this happened:

1.) It's part of the AI's strategy to break up the opponent's infrastructure before attacking cities (even though they're RIGHT THERE)
2.) It recognized the substantial disadvantage it had against a much stronger defender (something I'd never seen before)
3.) Plain stupidity.

Anyone care to shed some light on this subject?
 
Actually, the AI was probably moving its troops to attack a city garrisoned by less qualified defenders. Also, if you had an undefended city in the middle of your empire, it was going for that. The AI always knows if one of your cities is undefended. You can actually use this to get the AI to run around in circles without attacking anything, as you slowly wittle away at his army.
 
Hmm...didn't have any undefended cities, although there were a few that hadn't yet been upgraded to Mech Inf. So the AI would rather move the 20 squares to attack a city that was just as well defended, but had a couple of defensive points less?

Thanks for the tip.:)

One thing I'd forgotten to add in the first post: what was most confusing was that they moved right up against the city, and then started moving AWAY from it when the stack broke up. If they were heading for other cities, they would have had to go in the opposite direction, past the city.
 
The AI is smart enough not to attack anything with a high defence rating. I've gotten into the habit of putting my Archers in the mountains, and sometimes I'll build a fortress as well. There could be a war raging all around and not once will those Archers be attacked.
 
I've noticed that, post 1.17 patch, the AI targets resources and infrastructure much more heavily. In my current game a raging horde of 24 barbarian horse attacked my capital area. They disconected my iron sources, spice and gems before moving to attack the city itself. Pre patch they always went right for the city.
 
Originally posted by Shaitan
I've noticed that, post 1.17 patch, the AI targets resources and infrastructure much more heavily. In my current game a raging horde of 24 barbarian horse attacked my capital area. They disconected my iron sources, spice and gems before moving to attack the city itself. Pre patch they always went right for the city.
Click to expand...
This is a smart move by the AI. I noticed in pre1.17 that the AI will not attack with a lower unit, but will use it to disrupt improvments, pillage ressources...etc. Remember those stacks of spearmen and longbowmen wandering on your territory while the AI has tanks?

loki
 
I think the AI calculated the odds and decided to wait. 20 or even 30 regular infantry have a low chance of taking out 2 mech infantry fortified in a big city (7+ pop or worse 13+ pop).

It is 6 attack vs. 20 defense, and that defense gets a big boost from being in a big city so it is more like 30 defense. That is a suicide run, with maybe a 10% chance of getting one hit point off the defender, and a 6% of the defender being promoted. I'd guess 8 out 10 times the result is two elite Mechs and a pile of corpses. Maybe 1 in 50 that they take the city.

The AI is pretty good at figuring odds, but sometimes it goes into bash mode where it attacks everything in sight to try and lower your morale.
 
The AI is smart enough not to pick tough fights - on unit level. This doesn`t mean it won`t declare war when you`re stronger, but it will not go for troops it can hardly defeat. You can use that to your advantage though, since the AI is dumb enough not to realize when it should fight at all cost....

Imagine everyone has Infantry, but the best offence around is Cav. Everyone is in a major war on several continents (you can get there fast with MPP), Cannons are relatively rare (happens when noone has "deep" territory - Cav picks them off). If now you move only 12 units into enemy territory, you can utterly ruin him.

How??

Make it 4 stacks of 2 Infantry + 1 Cav, all at least veteran.

Move them around, cuting roads, especially to res and lux. And watch that poor guys troops fret around your stacks but hardly ever dare to attack them.

Smart AI, anyone?????
 
Originally posted by Killer
The AI is smart enough not to pick tough fights - on unit level. This doesn`t mean it won`t declare war when you`re stronger, but it will not go for troops it can hardly defeat. You can use that to your advantage though, since the AI is dumb enough not to realize when it should fight at all cost....

Imagine everyone has Infantry, but the best offence around is Cav. Everyone is in a major war on several continents (you can get there fast with MPP), Cannons are relatively rare (happens when noone has "deep" territory - Cav picks them off). If now you move only 12 units into enemy territory, you can utterly ruin him.

How??

Make it 4 stacks of 2 Infantry + 1 Cav, all at least veteran.

Move them around, cuting roads, especially to res and lux. And watch that poor guys troops fret around your stacks but hardly ever dare to attack them.

Smart AI, anyone?????
Click to expand...


I actually did this with cav and riflemen stacks moving in to the enemy empire. Well, it turned out that the AI was not too shy about sending his cav at my stacks (he ended up busting up most of them, though i did disconnect his resources temporarily). I guess the AI will charge 6 attack into 6 defense, but not 6 attack into 10 defense...

- Windwalker
 
Originally posted by Windwalker



I actually did this with cav and riflemen stacks moving in to the enemy empire. Well, it turned out that the AI was not too shy about sending his cav at my stacks (he ended up busting up most of them, though i did disconnect his resources temporarily). I guess the AI will charge 6 attack into 6 defense, but not 6 attack into 10 defense...

- Windwalker
Click to expand...

You`re right, it only works the way I described when the other guys forces are drwined by a multi-front war and he just can`t assemble a strong enough force. Then he`d still be better off picking off you ubits one by one - but he`ll nver do it.

If on the other hand he has a "normal" military then he has his offensive units ready for attack anytime - and will do a lot to defend his res and lux - that one you can use to distract him from attacking your towns.....
 
I am the Iroquois with a load of Mounted Warriors. I lead the nearby Aztecs in everything; I especialy have a nice military advantage.

In one of the more bizarre culture flips, the border in one place flips onto my important road, mine and garrisoned fortress. Perhaps that Aztec large town rush built some culture improvements, or maybe the AI was just being strange again.

Anyway, I will not leave, even though I "will be blamed" for any war. Which is also nonsensical.

Soooo. . . . the Aztecs go to war with me and of course get creamed. They also wouldn't make peace (accept on an unacceptable peace treaty for peace treaty basis) until all but wiped out.

I don't think that was very smart of the AI at all.

BTW, it still seems to me the AI only counts the quantity of your units - not the type or quality. Also none too sagacious.
 
Agreed. The AI counts your units...not the strength of those units.

I hear a lot of talk about how smart the AI is in Civ3. Its smarter than Civ2, I'll say that. But then, I won't be saying a whole lot. I still waltz through them once I've got anything CLOSE to comparable techs....

The ai does kind of ok when attacking/invading.....kind of. But it can't defend itself.

To put it quite simply, the AI is still freakin' dumb.

I'm not talking in relation to past ai's or other games' ai's. I'm just talking compared to me. :D
 
Had England once sign an MPP in th emiddle of a war, and move a staack of cavalry in. Then moved to a hill next to a city, and waited till the next turn to attack. 27 cav and 4 knights. All but 5 of their cav.... Reasonable move, since the city only had one infantry, and they might lose a few units, but would take th ecity.. And I was at war at the other end of my country.... But. I had rails, and did something the AI does not--moved 27 arty by rail, knocked off one or two hit points from each unit, and them moved 31 tanks in by rail--- set them back somwhat to lose nearly their entire cavalry in a failed attack. Cost me a tank.

It was basically a smart move except for ignoring the rails, and the use of arty to attack.
 
Yeah, you are right. An experienced human player can easily out manuveur the AI. It is shame.

The guy in charge of the AI, Soren Johnson, seems like a brilliant guy, and he put a lot of work into the project. But the end result is still fairly weak vs. an experienced human player. The AI is decent against novice players (plenty of threads about novices getting beaten). The AI sometimes show flashes of planning (massing forces, attacking when there is no other good option). So there is progress, but it is a long way from being good.

Patch 1.17f includes a significant update for the AI, but I adapted to it after two days and now the AI seems no better off despite many hours of work to fill gaps.

I wonder what kind of tools Mr. Johnson uses. It has to be a nightmare if most things are hardcoded on a low level (no meta language). One little oversight and the AI looks like an idiot. Once a human finds a gap, he'll used it every time.

Some day, a publisher will put out a game that lets the fans script the AI. That day will be when things might become very interesting (or more likely crash horribly :lol:

Originally posted by VoodooAce
...

To put it quite simply, the AI is still freakin' dumb.

I'm not talking in relation to past ai's or other games' ai's. I'm just talking compared to me. :D
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Moulton
Had England once sign an MPP in th emiddle of a war, and move a staack of cavalry in. Then moved to a hill next to a city, and waited till the next turn to attack. 27 cav and 4 knights. All but 5 of their cav.... Reasonable move, since the city only had one infantry, and they might lose a few units, but would take th ecity.. And I was at war at the other end of my country.... But. I had rails, and did something the AI does not--moved 27 arty by rail, knocked off one or two hit points from each unit, and them moved 31 tanks in by rail--- set them back somwhat to lose nearly their entire cavalry in a failed attack. Cost me a tank.

It was basically a smart move except for ignoring the rails, and the use of arty to attack.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought you couldn't use enemy roads. If they attacked you they shouldn't be able to use your railroads or regular roads at all. Whenever I'm in enemy territory I know I can't use their roads. I actually thought I'd discovered a bug when my troops only moved on square on roads, but then remembered the "no enemy roads" rule.
 
Originally posted by BillChin
Yeah, you are right. An experienced human player can easily out manuveur the AI. It is shame.

The guy in charge of the AI, Soren Johnson, seems like a brilliant guy, and he put a lot of work into the project. But the end result is still fairly weak vs. an experienced human player. The AI is decent against novice players (plenty of threads about novices getting beaten). The AI sometimes show flashes of planning (massing forces, attacking when there is no other good option). So there is progress, but it is a long way from being good.

Patch 1.17f includes a significant update for the AI, but I adapted to it after two days and now the AI seems no better off despite many hours of work to fill gaps.

I wonder what kind of tools Mr. Johnson uses. It has to be a nightmare if most things are hardcoded on a low level (no meta language). One little oversight and the AI looks like an idiot. Once a human finds a gap, he'll used it every time.

Some day, a publisher will put out a game that lets the fans script the AI. That day will be when things might become very interesting (or more likely crash horribly :lol:
Click to expand...

haha... Do you think that a fan can ever script something as well as someone (like Johnson) whose whole CAREER is based on stuff like that? I know fans have put up pretty cool mods and stuff, but scripting an AI is a full-time job; I know of many programmers who would agree with me...

On the whole, I think that the Civ III AI is just too inflexible; too few contingencies planned out. It doesn't seem to think on different levels of strategy, such as single unit battles vs. general war aims. It doesn't fully recognize the importance of certain strategic resources (I can always disconnect their saltpeter, no prob), nor does it realize the strategic implications of railways or artillery or even cities (it should recognize that some cities are worth losing if it can concentrate defense on a better spot, or if it can buy time).

It's not Firaxis' fault, it's just a dang tough job to do. Imagine having to implement the above ideas with all ages of warfare, all types of map-types, the relative considerations of the board (what makes a city or resource or stack more important than another?), etc. It's tough. That's why most of the strat games out there that really thrive for a long time are Multi-Player.

- Windwalker
 
Originally posted by Windwalker

haha... Do you think that a fan can ever script something as well as someone (like Johnson) whose whole CAREER is based on stuff like that? I know fans have put up pretty cool mods and stuff, but scripting an AI is a full-time job; I know of many programmers who would agree with me...
- Windwalker
Click to expand...

Actually, I am sure of it. No matter how brilliant Mr. Johnson is, he is one guy, with deadlines and many other duties. Take a hundred hardcore fans and give them decent tools and some basic scripts, with virtually unlimited time (no budget, no deadlines to worry about) they will develop a better AI. Another problem with the existing method is that the programmer is usually a brilliant programmer, but often times a mediocre game player. The real problem with scripts is that the AI scripting tools would be a huge big project, possibly as big a programming job as the game itself, not that fans can not do a good job.

Rarely are the best game players in the inner core of the AI development loop, because of time and budget constraints. If they were, bringing catapults, cannons and artillery along for an offensive and other combined arms techniques would have been in version 1.07 (still not present in 1.17). For a human that adjustment is easy, but something in the way the current AI code is set up makes it hard. Believe me, fans would find a way to make it happen, and once one person found a way, everyone could include it in their script.

The key is the speed of adaptation. Fans can tweak their scripts or modify the base ones that ship with the game, and in a few hours other fans will tell them how they outwitted that script. The same process at Firaxis takes place after each patch, so the Darwinism rate for the AI is much slower, weeks and months vs. hours and days.

A lousy script by a fan will get tossed in a few hours. A gap in the AI will get exploited until it gets patched. The fan will give up, or tweak their script to see what works. Mr. Johnson has a dozen other tasks to attend to, so at best he will fill the gap several weeks later with the next patch, and at worst, never get around to it. Eventually a good size library of half-decent scripts will be built up and a human player can randomly choose, greatly adding to the variety in the game.

The AI from Mr. Johnson has his imprint on it, a certain style, a certain predictability. Scripts from a hundred different fans would have a hundred different styles, making for much more variety in game play. Some would be very aggressive militarists, some peaceful builders, some might aim for a one city culture win. Some would expand to fill all the empty land (all the current AIs do this). Others might expand to a set number of cities then prepare for war and woe unto anyone who is near them at that point in the game (my preferred strategy).

With a random selector, a human player gets to face a much wider variety of opponents. I actually would prefer this to multiplayer for a game like Civ III, where multiplayer games may take 80+ hours. It gives a similar feel without the need to be online with the same group of people for 80+ hours at a time. I'll say this, I ain't gonna spend 80+ hours to play a single Civ III game online. 80+ hours is my guess for an average game (4 to 6 players on a standard size map).
 
I just wanted to comment that though I love the game, I think the AI's miltary tactics are essentially garbage. I find my army is always larger than theirs, so I appreciate how tough that makes it for them, but they never seem to mount a coordinated offensive. The three biggest problems, mostly covered above, are

1. Failure to recognize that railroads make it possible to concentrate all troops in border towns with no risk. Railroads also make it possible to respond to an invasion with one's entire military.

2. Failure to use artillery offensively.

3. Failure to predict that when they march into my land, especially post railroad, I will unleash 40 artillery on their advancing stacks before I send in my offensive military, and those stacks will be wiped out.

If they would just recognize point 1, I think it would be almost impossible to walk all over them. You'd have to wage wars of attrition and have a truly superior military before you could move in. Starting on day two of your invasion, can you imagine trying to take a city with 8 or even 18 infantry! They probably have the troops. Those troops are just divided into stacks of two on every city in their vast nation. I'm not sure I've ever had a force I'd feel confident would beat 18 infantry, though I've frequently had 40 infantry myself.

I've just finished playing my first game on Monarch, after many games at the lower levels, so maybe I just haven't given them a chance, but I'm afraid they ain't gonna get any better. Btw, am I right in thinking AI plays its best starting on regent and the harder levels beyond that just give the computer advantages in production, science, etc?
 
Yes, you cannot use enemy roads or rail, and the AI cannot use mine. But I can, and did. They neglected to take into account that I could move massive armies accross the crountry, fire, and return (in the case of tanks.-- 0 move, fire, 0 move back.
 
Originally posted by JeffNebraska
I just wanted to comment that though I love the game, I think the AI's miltary tactics are essentially garbage. I find my army is always larger than theirs, so I appreciate how tough that makes it for them, but they never seem to mount a coordinated offensive. The three biggest problems, mostly covered above, are
Click to expand...


Well of course, an AI will never be on par with a human player, we just don't have that kind of technology yet, and may never have. And although it may be stupid at times, it's a major improvement over previous games. Even though most of the time it's rather stupid, occasionally it does something that surprises even the most hard core Civer. And I'm sure that over time and another patch or two, Soren will leave us with a few more surprises.
 
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