Open letter to Sid's Minions for a priority in the next release

cracker

Gil Favor's Sidekick
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This is an open letter to the Firaxis development team, Sid (the Game God), and all the game players and mod makers who can focus on what we like about Civ3 and how to get the next level of enjoyment with the minimum programming changes and time lag.

I think that most of the key tools and code features are already in the game, it is just that the game is handicapped by lack of a big picture approach to implementation.

Much of this is found in hard-coded “kluges” to problems instead of implementing the same solution with a broader approach that will allow for flexibility, adjustment, and adaptation without each increment commanding programming resources in each subsequent patch.

The best “Worst Example” in the current game is probably found in the implementation of Armies.

Armies are a unique unit in that they are currently the only unit that is limited to the number of cities AND Armies are also unique in that they are the only unit that can be limited to being built in a city that has a specific small wonder or improvement already built.

FLASHING LIGHTBULB :enlighten AND CLANGING GONG.

Why would someone spend the effort to write these coding constraints and then hardcode the restrictions into the general settings for the game that limits the use of the programming to only one specific unit???

Why not set these choices as options on the units dialog and then make Armies the only current choice where this dialog applies to the unit released in the standard Civ3 product?

Expanding the usefulness of this programming would only require adding a drop down menu to the units dialog page that would let the editor restrict building of units to a city where a specific wonder or improvement has been built. FLASHING GOLD STAR and CASH REGISTER DING.

You would also add a check box to engage a ratio restriction on the units that would let you restrict the number of units that can be maintained relative to the number of cities, or number of improvements, or number of another type of units. For simplicity this Ratio should be implemented per 100 items of the restricting prerequisite. ANOTHER FLASHING GOLD STAR and CASH REGISTER DING.

Implementing these army like features to be potentially applicable to any or all units will give you a set of tools that can be used by the game play balancing Nazis to help control balance without just simply making the units worthless, ineffective, technically and financially inaccessible.

Other simple unit features that should be implemented along the same philosophical approach should include:

  • A unit support cost multiplier and a transport utilization factor. Both of these factors should be implemented based on a 100 factor being the 100 to 100 ratio.
  • An “obsolete by upgrade” flag that allows units to be built and then upgraded without eliminating the ability to build the first unit as is the current default implementation.
  • Units “upgrade cost multiplier” that allows the upgrade costs to be defined as more or less than the standard calculated shield to gold ratio of 100%. This feature will allow units to be built in some towns and cities and then “sent to school” in other cities for the upgrade without making it impossible for towns to build the lower units.
  • A “targeted unit” selection box and factor that allows each unit to have a defined other unit where its major attack or defense strength is most effective. This last item will have significant impact on letting the game play balance advocates control specific results without creating universal destroyer or universally worthless units. Examples of implementing this set of choices would be perhaps an A10 Warthog against tanks or a machine gun against infantry. These selective choices would avoid the seemingly silly scenarios where a longbow man kills a tank or where galleys can sink privateers 60% of the time.

Note that most of these simple drop down box restrictions and other ratio restrictions already exist and have been tested in the game code for units and for improvements/wonders (witness Armies, Wall Street, Battlefield Medicine, and SDI). Just take the coding and tie it to the appropriate drop down boxes and ratio boxes on the units pages and improvement/wonder pages and the result will be 15 orders of magnitude closer to a rave reviewed product by the core group of users that will drive all the market expansion.

This open letter really is meant to focus on encouraging the philosophical shift to make the features of the game more accessible for simple adjustment because we need to recognize that the hundreds of creative minds in the game play and modification community will use features in new and creative ways that may go well beyond anything that the original creators can envision.

Also, this letter should emphasize a need for an approach to game play balancing that does not simply focus on rendering the included unit incapable of reasonable and cost effective functioning. There ought to be a winning game strategy that includes valid reasons for building and using each unit in the game instead of a philosophy that actively tries to prevent the units from being any advantage to the human player if the unit are built and utilized in an appropriate strategy.

... cracker .... (I have a real name and prewritten help files, just email me)
 
here's your reply from Firaxis

Hello <your name>

Thank you for showing interest in our products. We are working hard on supplying you with the best gaming experiences you could have. And we are dedicated to make you feel satisfied with your game.

Sincerely, Firaxis

Seriously though, what i would like to see are armor/weapon classes:

Give each unit two more variables, one for weapon and one for armor.

If a unit attacks/defends against another with higher armor rating than the attackers weapon rating. He cannot do any damage WHATSOEVER.

So, as examples

Infantry: AC:0, WC:0

Panzer: AC:2, WC:1

Battleship:AC:3, WC:2

M113A1: AC:1,WC:1

ITV:AC:1,WC:2 (M113 chassi with TOW missiles)

TOW infantry:AC:0, WC:2



jmho
 
The hell with MP. Where is scenario-building and cheat mode?


IDEA:

Why not have TWO levels of military unit warfare?? One (Basic) can be for the dimwits Firaxis seems to pander to, and the other (Advanced) for those of us who know such basic things as War Elephants should NOT airlift.

If we can toggle off UU's, why not?
 
Originally posted by Zouave
IDEA:

Why not have TWO levels of military unit warfare?? One (Basic) can be for the dimwits Firaxis seems to pander to, and the other (Advanced) for those of us who know such basic things as War Elephants should NOT airlift.

If we can toggle off UU's, why not?

Instead of continually bashing the vendor for not giving you the exact game that you want, why not praise them for giving you the ability to make the game that you want? It seems that instead of pandering to the great many dimwits, you want them to pander to the exact specs that you want.
 
The only way for Firaxis to improve Civ3 is to make it more customizable. Changing one hard-coded thing to another hard-coded thing will result in little or no improvement, whereas removing the restrictions on different aspects of the game will allow everyone to customize the game to suit their individual tastes. For example, completely removing culture-flipping will accomplish nothing because some people hate it, think it should be removed, was a stupid idea in the first place, blah blah blah; and others don't have much of a problem with it. (I've only had one instance where one of my cities flipped, and it was a conquered one, not one I built) But if Firaxis gives us the option of turning it on or off, nobody should be able to complain about it anymore because they can change it if it doesn't suit them. And after that, they should add even more options to suit even more people (such as the option to not have your garrison disappear when a city flips) The same goes for any and all other hard-coded elements of the game. Firaxis will never be able to please everyone if they keep the game as it is in its current state. A full-fledged editor is a must, as well as listening to fan feedback so that they can continue to make the game more enjoyable for all gamers, not just the loudest whiners. And Firaxis-bashing will not accomplish anything, either. You'll be less likely to get what you want when you complain, than if you simply make suggestions on how the game can/should be improved.
 
i say this with the greatest respect to you all, but, to my knowledge, firaxis never promised a completely and utterly customisable game. or did they? please correct me if i'm wrong. it's strange, but of all the games i've played, and all the forums i've used, this is the only game that so many of it's players are demanding to re-write the game to their own tastes. is this because civ II was so flexible that people expected it of civ III?

now please don't get me wrong, i'd love you all to be able to do what you want with the game - you can make the scenarios and i can play 'em!!!

and if firaxis led you to believe that what you don't have thay would deliver, please enlighten me!! i genuinely don't know. but politely, though,eh??!! ;)

d
 
Originally posted by David In Asia
i say this with the greatest respect to you all, but, to my knowledge, firaxis never promised a completely and utterly customisable game. or did they? please correct me if i'm wrong. it's strange, but of all the games i've played, and all the forums i've used, this is the only game that so many of it's players are demanding to re-write the game to their own tastes. is this because civ II was so flexible that people expected it of civ III?

now please don't get me wrong, i'd love you all to be able to do what you want with the game - you can make the scenarios and i can play 'em!!!

and if firaxis led you to believe that what you don't have thay would deliver, please enlighten me!! i genuinely don't know. but politely, though,eh??!! ;)

d

No, Firaxis never promised us anything, but they're probably aware that the fans don't like every aspect of the game, and it would be in THEIR best interest to listen, so that they can have a successful game. If they totally ignored fan requests, their game would not be as popular because people would tell others not to buy it. On the other hand, if they listen and make changes to the game that allow people to customize it, almost everyone will enjoy it more, and there will be great potential for a successful Civilization 4, based on Civ3's success. The long-term success of Civilization II was because of its ability to be customized to each player's individual tastes, and because it allowed for the creation of diverse and challenging scenarios and mods. This is why everyone expects the same of Civ3. Don't get me wrong -- I really appreciate what Firaxis has done and plans to do with Civ3. I think they've done a lot more than most other game companies would do to create a game that the fans can modify, and not just be forced to play the game one way or the other. But there is more to be done before Civ3 will truly shine, and distinguish itself from Civ2. At least it appears that they are listening to the fans, and they will surely release a full-featured scenario editor in the future, and probably other various modifications to the game itself. What they should not do is force gamers to buy an expansion pack to get that full-featured editor, which IMO should have been included in the game when I bought it. But heck, I'll still buy the ex. pack anyway, and I'm sure a lot of other gamers will, too. It's just not really the right way for Firaxis to go about improving Civ3. While I'm not a Firaxis-supporter, I don't feel that they should be hammered for including/not including various features in the game. They don't owe us anything, except IMO the real scenario editor. I say they owe us that because it was in Civ2, so there's no reason to omit it from Civ3. They will probably give us other features, such as multiplayer, as well so they are certainly not ignoring fan feedback.

Another thing: While Firaxis is in no way obligated to tell us what they're planning for the game, I think they should be a lot more open about what they plan to do with it. They should frequently visit these forums and respond to fan requests, saying whether or not they are able to implement various things that fans request. They'd have happier people on their hands if they did that.
 
fair comment ted, but can you answer something for me. i never played any scenarios in civ II, just the basic game. what's the difference with what you can do with civ III and II? what i mean is, can you not, say, make a world war II scenario?

d
 
Originally posted by David In Asia
i say this with the greatest respect to you all, but, to my knowledge, firaxis never promised a completely and utterly customisable game. or did they? please correct me if i'm wrong. it's strange, but of all the games i've played, and all the forums i've used, this is the only game that so many of it's players are demanding to re-write the game to their own tastes. is this because civ II was so flexible that people expected it of civ III?

now please don't get me wrong, i'd love you all to be able to do what you want with the game - you can make the scenarios and i can play 'em!!!

and if firaxis led you to believe that what you don't have thay would deliver, please enlighten me!! i genuinely don't know. but politely, though,eh??!! ;)

d

Quoted from the actual FAQ of www.civ3.com :
"More powerful and intuitive customization tools.
And those are just a few of the ways we'll improve the Civ experience. Stay tuned for all the details!"

"more" is a comparative. Some can use insincerity to tell "yes, it's MORE POWERFUL than not editor at all", but seriously, we all know that it's supposed to be a comparison between the new Civ and the old Civ. And no, I'm not talking about Civ1 :p
 
Why couldn't they have just waited another year to release the game? We'd probably have just about everything we want in this game.
 
$$$!

They have to pay their staff to work on it. It was a while since they had a previous title out the door.
 
Originally posted by warpstorm
$$$!

They have to pay their staff to work on it. It was a while since they had a previous title out the door.

I was surprised that the Game took such less time to release since conception;)

However, it is not a half ass job and maybe they intended to make scenario editor later and let the people enjoy the actual game first..


Frankly, I played Civ2 for a whole year before I started even the scenarios in the CD:)
 
Originally posted by David In Asia
fair comment ted, but can you answer something for me. i never played any scenarios in civ II, just the basic game. what's the difference with what you can do with civ III and II? what i mean is, can you not, say, make a world war II scenario?

d

Civ3 does not allow the creation of real scenarios yet. You can't make a WWII scenario because the editor won't let you put cities and units on the map, so it'd be like you're starting from scratch. The regular game is fun, but scenarios are great because they provide variation from just starting from scratch all the time, and using the same units, etc.
 
ahhh, now i see why people are so p*s**d off with the "editor" - you're saying you can't put cities or units on the map? so what's the point of it then, just to make pretty maps?

also, good call from akka, quoting firaxis:
More powerful and intuitive customization tools. And those are just a few of the ways we'll improve the Civ experience. Stay tuned for all the details!"

naughty naughty firaxis :nono:
 
It is strange how Firaxis seems to be replying less to posts these days. When I first joined they seemed to reply much more often. Maybe it is because many of the posts that concern them recently are bad to them.
 
Originally posted by Quentin
It is strange how Firaxis seems to be replying less to posts these days. When I first joined they seemed to reply much more often. Maybe it is because many of the posts that concern them recently are bad to them.

Or better yet: I hope it's because they're working so diligently on getting us the features we want in Civ3 that they don't have time to browse the forums.:D
 
I think it is really funny to hear you all talk about Civilization II and scenarios because the only way I ever played the game was on Playstation and there was no way to edit any thing. But even with that fact I thought the game was still good enough that I bought III when it came out, and waited in anticipation in fact. I say the real time to make any criticism is when you have no completed editor and have waited 6 months for a new patch. They seem to be working pretty good on getting patches out, and until things stop just let them do their thing. The game is still great without the editer.
 
Originally posted by DelinquentRock
I think it is really funny to hear you all talk about Civilization II and scenarios because the only way I ever played the game was on Playstation and there was no way to edit any thing. But even with that fact I thought the game was still good enough that I bought III when it came out, and waited in anticipation in fact. I say the real time to make any criticism is when you have no completed editor and have waited 6 months for a new patch. They seem to be working pretty good on getting patches out, and until things stop just let them do their thing. The game is still great without the editer.

Yes, the game is great without the editor, but some people like to do more than just the same thing all the time. If doing the same thing over and over gets boring, or there's an aspect of the game that an individual player doesn't like, he/she can change it with the editor...that's why the editor is important. The regular game is fun, but when you have scenarios, the game reaches a whole new level of diversity and, for many people, becomes more enjoyable. That's the main reason Civ2 has lasted so long. So basically, Civ3 is a very good game, but won't transcend above Civ2 until a real scenario editor comes out (which will definitely happen, eventually), and some of the aspects of the game become options, not rules.
 
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