Should we revolt in the next couple turns?

Should we revolt in the next couple turns?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • No

    Votes: 12 46.2%

  • Total voters
    26

eyrei

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Should we revolt now?

The government will not be decided until the revolt ends, so we will only play up until the turn before we have to choose on the next session. Then we will have a government poll

Also, this will be our last chance to pop-rush. I am do not have internet access at home right now, and I got caught posting at work, so I need the citizens to take an active role (if I am still domestic leader tomorrow) for a couple of days. This is very important: This is our last chance to use pop-rushing if this poll indicates a revolution! If you wish to see something, preferably cultural improvements, rushed in a city, please post a poll about it. The domestic leader will not be bound by these polls, except that it will allow myself or donsig to rush these buildings in these particular cities just before the revolt. There will be no pop-rushing without a poll and none if the poll says nay! I will probably post a couple tomorrow morning (again, if I still hold this office), but I will not have much time to analyze every city. Please participate!
 
I vote yes. The revolt should take place Thursday, at which time a new poll about govt. type is started. Then on Saturday, we should change to the new government. At least that's the way I understood the discussion.
 
I have looked at cultural improvements in our cities, and based upon what we have and what we are building, I recommend we wait at least a few more turns, or we will need to do several pop-rushes, which I know might not have popular support.

We have several cities which are close to completing cultural buildings, or could be if we switched them over. I think it is important that we do so before we revolt, so we can at least get credit for those years of anarchy in the age bonus. For example, if we revolted now, and it took 7 turns to get a new government, it would be 300AD. Any cultural building that was already completed would be 90 years older, closer to that 1000 year bonus. If we wait until after the revolt, that time is wasted.

Here are the cities that are close or could be:
New York - Library 8 turns (will gain a game forest with border)
Eyr - I/S Library, 6 turns (our 2nd city has no improvements???)
Boston - Library 15 (would gain a wheat)
Shailo - I/S library, 11 turns (has a temple)
Philly - Libary 3 (Border town)
Khat - I/S Library 12 (counting growth) (Border)
PDX - I/S Library 3 (has temple)
Pherris - I/S Temple 11 (has library)
Civan - I/S Temple 15 (has library)
New Falcon - I/S Library 22, or 8 if move one worker to forest (6 if move 2 workers, with no food growth)
Need Name - I/S Libary 20
Several cities (Chicago, Port Gisnod, SF) could switch, but it would be 30+ turns unless they pop rush. But they won't build much else either.


I/S= If they switch production now.

To summarize, we could have 2 libraries in 3 turns, three more in 6-8 turns. I recommend we wait at least the 3 turns to finish Philly and PDX. I would like to finish the others in 6-8 turns, (NY, Eyr, New Falc.), then revolt. If we cant wait that long, then we should at least plan to set aside money to rush them our first turn in our new government, if we wait 3 turns, the last 3-5 turns should only cost us 60, 72, and 40 gold respectively.

Pherris and Civanatoria should continue to work on units for now, they have barracks, already have a Library, and are closer to the action.

There are two cities I recommend for rushing before the revolt - Boston and Khatovar. Both produce more food (3) than shields, and would take over 10 turns to complete libraries if left on their own. They have the population to support it, and each would benefit from expanded borders (Boston with the wheat, and Khat because it is our Southern border). I understand that this would probably take a poll, so I will post one for these two cities specifically. Otherwise, we will have to look at paying to rush them after we come out of the revolt, at about 100 gold each. I know Khatovar is currently building a settler, but I think we need the libary first, maybe another city could build the settler instead.
 
Or, we could keep fighting, get a great leader, use him to rush the forbidden palace in one of the old American cities and then those cities would be productive!

Revolt now! No more whips!

Join Save our Citizens now!
 
Excellent summary Justus II. Donsig, check this out. Justus II please verify my numbers. If we wait until the end of our 8th turn to revolt, we'll get 5 libraries...if we wait 12 turns to revolt, we'll get 7 libraries and a temple, and if we wait 15 turns (i think we can persuade the Prez or Duke to extend the turns played) then we will get 8 libraries and 2 temples all without pop rushing or paying money. Why don't we just play 12 - 15 turns next chat and collect these free improvements before revolting? A mastermind plan Justus II. Plus it stops all this dissention. We will slide into Monarchy fully prepared and ready to collect future bonuses. I back this plan!
 
Originally posted by Cyc
Excellent summary Justus II. Donsig, check this out. Justus II please verify my numbers. If we wait until the end of our 8th turn to revolt, we'll get 5 libraries...if we wait 12 turns to revolt, we'll get 7 libraries and a temple, and if we wait 15 turns (i think we can persuade the Prez or Duke to extend the turns played) then we will get 8 libraries and 2 temples all without pop rushing or paying money. Why don't we just play 12 - 15 turns next chat and collect these free improvements before revolting? A mastermind plan Justus II. Plus it stops all this dissention. We will slide into Monarchy fully prepared and ready to collect future bonuses. I back this plan!

If this plan includes rushing libraries in those cities that are producing one shield, namely the ones there are polls about, then I support waiting 12 turns for the revolt. Anywhere we can rush a temple instead of a library before the revolt, we should. However, several of our cities produce one shield, and will not be able to get to that point.
 
I see your point Eyrei. How about this...we play 15 turns, revolt at the last of the 15th turn. By doing this we will get a library in all the cities except Chicago and Need a Name. Need a Name will be 5 turns out at the beginning of the new govt. (an easy purchase in Monarchy) and woeful Chicago can just wait, being it will only be down to 15 turns. So we will not have torched anyone and spent minimal amounts of money for Need a Name.
 
My original recommendation was to wait at least 8 turns, to get as many libraries done as possible without rushing. Valid "accounting" type arguments could probably be made for rushing in almost all of those cities, if needed, however I thought that would be excessive. Most of them can finish in a reasonable period of time, and still revolt and get through the anarchy this session. The three poll cities, however, were selected precisely because they could not build it in less than 10 turns, also had high food rates, and unfortunately also have corruption problems. This is the primary reason for rushing projects, I believe, when corruption is so high that normal production is so wasted that it becomes inefficient. Once the FP is built, if it is in the former american cities, corruption will reduce to the point where they will become productive, but that could be a long way off yet. This is our last opportunity to use one of the few methods the game provides for overcoming early corruption, i.e. pop-rushing, to do just that. Waiting longer than 6-8 turns just means that many more decades of waste and corruption in so many other cities, which are living under the burdens of our harsh despotism. Once we are in Monarchy, (or Republic), we can use cash to rush any project we want, but not EVERY project we want. Here again, I tried to prioritize those cities I thought would bring the greatest benefit, at the least cost to the city itself and the nation as a whole.
 
Our new cultural minister examined how long to build libraries in all our cities. This whole discussion must take into account our present military situation. Even with almost 30 immortals we must still devote some of our production to the military.

Personally, I am all for building libraries just as long as we do not pop rush them! Granted, pop rushing those three libraries would be beneficial but it is not critical that we do so! Our country will thrive without pop rushing these improvements!
 
I voted 'no'. I believe we should pop-rush the three libraries immediately, then wait for the other 8 libraries and 2 temples (I believe these are the numbers Cyc gave) to be built, then revolt. Culture is important, and the sooner we build libraries and temples, the better.
 
No, I'm sorry punkbass2000, let me sum it up.

Without pop rushing at all -

waiting 8 turns would net us 5 libraries
waiting 12 turns would net us 7 libraries and 1 temple
waiting 15 turns would net us 8 libraries and 2 temples

if we pop rushed the three polled towns -

waiting 8 turns would net us 8 libraries
waiting 11 turns would net us 9 libraries and 1 temple
 
I suggest the next session be only 8 turns long, and then we can discuss further. Do we really have 5 cities building libraries that will be done in 8 turns without rushing?
 
Yes, Eyrei. According to Justus II's research, if we switch Eyr, PDX, and New Falcon immediately, plus change a worker on New Falcon, we will have 5 libraries with no pop rushing in 8 turns.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
Yes, Eyrei. According to Justus II's research, if we switch Eyr, PDX, and New Falcon immediately, plus change a worker on New Falcon, we will have 5 libraries with no pop rushing in 8 turns.

Good. Very good. I am starting to agree that we should wait 15 turns until the revolt to get the others finished as well. Those extra turns of culture would be very nice.
 
As Cyc mentioned, that does involve switching production at New Falcon (from a Market that it doesn't need yet anyway) and then Eyr and PDX, two of our oldest cities with little to no culture (Eyr has nothing, PDX has a temple). I still think the greatest benefit, the "break-even" point if you will, is 8 turns. We can finish 5 libraries and rush 3 more, then revolt, by the end of the revolt we could finish the other 3-4 buildings or use cash to rush them, and they would still be done in the same amount of time.

For example, Civan and Pherris are 15 turns from a Temple, Shailo is 15 turns from a Library. If we wait 15 turns for them to finish, it will be 380 AD, then we revolt, and dont start monarchy until 450 AD. If we wait 8 turns, revolt in 310AD, we start monarchy in 380 AD, and use cash to rush them that turn. (They won't cost much, becuase they will have already put most of the shields into construction. I don't have the exact numbers, but i believe it would be 36-72 gold each (6 turns of production, at 2 or 3 shields per). They are still done on the 15th turn, but we are already through the anarchy. That means from 380-450 AD our other cities benefit from Monarchy.

I hope this makes sense, I don't mean to sound contradictory, but some cities make sense to rush, others build fast enough to finish in time. I tried to identify those cities which were most critical (had no cultural improvements at all) and get them done first, whereas these other three (Civ, Pherris, Shailo) all have at least one cultural building already, and should not be pop-rushed. They can use gold and finish the same time they would have anyway.

Bottom line, I am recommending we wait 8 turns to finish those that have no culture yet, then revolt, and then gold-rush the other three when we come out of anarchy. I think that this is the most effective way to build our culture. After all, 8 libraries in 8 turns will make a big spike on the histograph, and another around 1250 AD, when the turn length starts to get shorter and the 1000 years takes longer. The most efficient (i.e. ruthless, "accountant", barbaric) suggestion would be to pop rush a culture improvement in every city that could complete one before the anarchy, but I have tried to limit that to the cities I felt were most critical, build those that could be done in a reasonable time, and then reserve the last few for cash.
 
Originally posted by eyrei
I suggest the next session be only 8 turns long, and then we can discuss further. Do we really have 5 cities building libraries that will be done in 8 turns without rushing?

I see a potential problem with this though. Even more-so with the 15 turn wait proposed. The title of the poll reads:

Should we revolt in the next couple turns?

I don't think 8 or 15 turns counts as the next couple. If popular opinion is we should switch in the next couple, then I recommend we prepare our empire for a switch in the next couple. I think, in the future, we must define our proposals and polls more clearly, if at all possible. :)
 
Originally posted by chiefpaco


I see a potential problem with this though. Even more-so with the 15 turn wait proposed. The title of the poll reads:

Should we revolt in the next couple turns?

I don't think 8 or 15 turns counts as the next couple. If popular opinion is we should switch in the next couple, then I recommend we prepare our empire for a switch in the next couple. I think, in the future, we must define our proposals and polls more clearly, if at all possible. :)
I agree. This poll looks like it will approve anarchy and the pop rush polls are all coming out in favor of pop rush before anarchy. Stick with the poll results.
 
Can "couple" mean at least 3? I think that would still stay within the intent of the poll, and at least finish off Philadelphia and PDX, as well as the 3 rushes. Then we can discuss which cities to use gold for as we come out of anarchy, there were 3 that could be finished for about 150 total, if I remember correctly.
 
Originally posted by Shaitan

I agree. This poll looks like it will approve anarchy and the pop rush polls are all coming out in favor of pop rush before anarchy. Stick with the poll results.

I see your point. Live and learn, I guess. Something like this really does need alot of discussion, but we need to keep the game going. Justus' proposal of 3 turns seems acceptable.
 
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