Domestic Department - Term 2

This thread should be used to discuss domestic issues with a broad scope. Discussion about city queues and such should take place in the provincial thread of the city, or in a separate thread. You may also use this thread to request that I start a poll on an issue that concerns you.

Domestic Department Term 1 Thread

Domestic Department Term 2: Organization and Goals

Minister of the Interior: Eyrei
Deputy Minister of the Interior: Donsig
Chat Representative(s): Now hiring
Governors: Eyrei (Istar), SKILORD (Cormyr)
Mayors: I will compile this list when I can do it from home.

Current National Budget: 10% Science/90% Taxes
Current Departmental Budgets: Forthcoming

Major proposals up for discussion:

1. Provincial budgets: I propose that each province's governor be allowed to build what he/she wants, provided the build queues are not contrary to public opinion, and the city produces enough income to maintain the improvement. If the city cannot maintain the improvement, permission will have to be acquired from the domestic leader, who may post a poll (we might require that a poll be posted, but this could become very cumbersome).

2. Departmental Budgets: I propose that (once we have switched to a more advanced government) each department and province have its own budget. These budgets would depend on the needs of the department as compared to the needs of other departments. A good chunk of the treasury, however, would be put in a discretionary fund, that can be used wherever it is needed. All gold produced during a particular turn session would be considered part of this fund until the end of the turn, at which point the budgets would be redistributed. Access to the discretionary funds would be decided by a popular vote for each and every instance where a department or province wished to draw on these funds to rush a building or use this money to trade with other civs, etc. The percent of the treasury that each department or province has available would probably need to be decided by a popular vote and ratified by the cabinet. Each department would be responsible for keeping track of its total treasury, as this could grow if the department does not spend all of its funds. This could potentially result in one department 'owning' almost the entire treasury at points, though this would probably mean that the budget would be readdressed. An official of the domestic department, possibly the deputy would be charged with making sure that all departments treasuries are accurate and up-to-date. Departments are expected to cooperate with each other if it is for the good of the nation, and a popular poll could obviously force one department to give funds to another. In a way, we would have to start ignoring what the game tells us the total treasury is when plotting strategy, although a great national need could obviously reset the budget to 100% being in the discretionary fund. I realize this is complicated, but if we could implement something similar to this, I believe it would add a new level of fun to the game. Please, offer your thoughts.

This was posted in the old domestic department thread just before it was closed:

Originally posted by chiefpaco:

I'm not sure whether this was covered in another thread but, about

build queues.

Right now, we have access to 4 luxuries. In towns, I think temples

should be low on our priority list right now. Libraries are of higher

culture, are cheaper to build, and contribute to our science funding.

I noticed Washington was on "temple". It already has a library. Could

this be changed?

Some things we could use instead of temples, in general:
- Military unit for each town.
- Workers. Especially our 1-shields cities. That is one thing they

can produce in 10 turns.
- Library to expand our borders.
- Some barracks in our frontal towns. For healing and upgrading units.

Perhaps we can make Temples a consideration of all size 7

cities?

Click to expand...

The main reason that temples are a priority right now is because of the

age bonus for 1000 year old culture buildings. I do agree that we need

more workers, and I actually suggest that all cities not designated for

military production (which are still most of them, because we are still

at war with everyone)build a worker of their own immediately after

finishing their first culture building. Personally, I think Washington

should finish its temple, but this is in Skilord's province. I do

agree that libraries have priority over temples for the reasons you

stated. I believe, that right now, a city with 2 military police (the

max for despotism) and access to all of our luxuries, will have two

happy citizens, 2 content citizens and two unhappy citizens at size 6.

If we add a temple, it will negate one unhappy citizen giving us only

one unhappy and 3 happy. If we switch to monarchy, which seems likely

to happen, and add another unit for police, the final unhappy citizen

will be eliminated, and there will be 4 happy, which will spark a WLTK

day. Note that the last two conditions can be interchanged, and both

need to be met for a WLTK day. If the city has been pop rushed in the

last 40 turns, I believe there will still be 3 happy and 3 content, if

these are both met which will still allow a WLTK day. My reason for

explaining this is that, without an increase in the luxury rate, cities

will not be able to enter a WLTK day without a temple or an

entertainer. An extra working citizen for a city will almost always

make up for the maintenance of a temple.

WLTK days are very important for managing corruption and waste, which

is going to be pretty bad otherwise, until we build the forbidden

palace.




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May I also suggest we consider rushing a military unit in any

defenseless town that is 2 squares away from an enemy unit and no help

in sight? If that is ever to occur?
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This is up to the military. If you are referring to the legion that is

about to sack Atlanta, I say this is necessary.

Eyrei, please vote in the Cabinet vote for the revised constitution.

Term 2 Interior Ministry Manifesto

Government: It appears we will soon have a more advanced form of government, which will greatly increase our economic potential. Because of the state of foreign affairs, we will likely have to choose monarchy over republic. I hope this will be a temporary situation. Republic offers us a much more powerful and flexible economy, and our nation has access to enough luxuries to make it feasible, as long as we are not constantly at war.

Happiness: The one major advantage that monarchy will offer us over republic is the use of 3 military police. This, combined with luxuries and temples should allow our size 6 towns to celebrate WLTK days. This will require expanding our military and evenly dispersing these units throughout the empire. A large military will also have the added benefit of deterring other nations from declaring war. We should have no need to raise the the luxury rate as long as we are in monarchy.

Improvements: The first prioriy for improvements should be those that produce culture. The earlier we build these the more culture they will produce. Once they reach 1000 years old, this culture value per turn will double. That is a great incentive to build these ASAP. Once we reach about 700 AD, culture buildings will not longer be the highest priority unless they are needed to expand the borders. Obviously, libraries are cheaper than temples, so they should be the first culture building in a city, unless it has very good production, in which case a temple should be built. Regardless, a temple and library should be the first two improvements in city, unless the military has need of a barracks or walls. Once these improvements are in place, a marketplace should be constructed, increasing our citizens happiness and improving our economy. The marketplace will also serve to pay maintenance costs for the cultural improvements in low to medium corruption cities. Finally, any city that is growing quickly, but does not have access to fresh water, will need to construct an aqueduct. Once one of our cities reaches size 7, it will produce one bonus shield, and also increase our military support by +2. Note that there will be numerous military units and some workers interspersed within these queues.

Tax rates: Until we discover Education, the tax rate will remain at 10% science and the rest in taxes. Once we discover education, we will need to do our own research. I suggest that we set our science as high as possible while still gaining gold/turn. As the empire grows, we may want to adjust this higher, but under monarchy it is often necessary to buy technology, so we will want a decent amount of gold coming in.

Rushing improvements: Once we can rush with gold, we should rush at least one cultural improvement in each city that is cultureless, ASAP. After this, most of our cash will probably have to be used to buy technology.

Workers: At least one worker per city should be built (not necessarily by that city) to improve our land. This will be necessary to take full advantage of our bonus tiles, particularly.

As the Department of Trade Minister, I also support more settlers for improving our lands. I have included an assessment in the Trade Department thread, as well as the Presidental and Military Department threads for their review. I suggest that we need to connect trade resources and roads heading north and south. That will aid us if we are invaded, and need quick troop movement.

The Department of Foreign Affairs is currently sponsoring a poll on behalf of the Domestic Department. This poll will decide our Provincial Borders. It is the right, privilege and duty of every citizen to vote in this poll.

The Department of Foreign Affairs requests a dedicated budget or significant commitment of the Treasury towards acquiring embassies with our former enemies. These nations have shown the good sense to accept peace with us and we believe that our relationship with them can grow to a healthy and mutually beneficial one. The first step to healing the rift between our peoples is to get normalized relations with them, i.e. embassies.

originally posted by eyrei:

Major proposals up for discussion:

1. Provincial budgets: I propose that each province's governor be allowed to build what he/she wants, provided the build queues are not contrary to public opinion, and the city produces enough income to maintain the improvement. If the city cannot maintain the improvement, permission will have to be acquired from the domestic leader, who may post a poll (we might require that a poll be posted, but this could become very cumbersome).

Click to expand...

From our constitution:

Section F: Governors and Provinces

Article 1: A governor controls the production (building queues) of the cities within a province. A governor's production decision can be overturned by a council vote or by the Military Leader during time of invasion.

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I respectfully point out to our Domestic Leader that our constitution clearly states that governors decide what is to be built in the cities within their provinces. The constitution specifies how and when a governor's choices can be overturned as can be seen in the quote from the constitution listed above. Please note that it does not say: "permission will have to be acquired from the domestic leader"!!!

If the domestic leader wants to impose restraints on our governors' powers he should seek to have the constitution changed rather than stretch the interpretation of one clause to its limit while ignoring other clauses.

Originally posted by donsig
originally posted by eyrei:


From our constitution:



I respectfully point out to our Domestic Leader that our constitution clearly states that governors decide what is to be built in the cities within their provinces. The constitution specifies how and when a governor's choices can be overturned as can be seen in the quote from the constitution listed above. Please note that it does not say: "permission will have to be acquired from the domestic leader"!!!

If the domestic leader wants to impose restraints on our governors' powers he should seek to have the constitution changed rather than stretch the interpretation of one clause to its limit while ignoring other clauses.

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Point taken. I am, however, concerned that we will end up paying maintenence on improvements that have little or no benefit, but I will trust our governors to make that decision.

Point taken. I am, however, concerned that we will end up paying maintenence on improvements that have little or no benefit, but I will trust our governors to make that decision.

Click to expand...

If we can get the governors to list their build queues ahead of time in an accessible thread then there will be plenty of time for citizens and government officials alike to debate the pros and cons of the build queues.

The idea of a city not being able to build improvements that it cannot support is not addressed in the constitution. I can understand the Domestic Leader's concerns about our cash flow. I am wary of imposing such large budgetary rules at this point as the picture is not complete. Peace will come one day and after that we will one day begin trading with other countries. This trading will hopefully add to our surplus making it easier to maintain improvements in cities that can not pay their total upkeep.

You could propose a Constitutional amendment. Something along the lines that provinces must support their own improvements. You could also extend the budget to include provinces.

Example:
20% of the budget is applied to provinces.
Each province nets 7 gold per turn.
Each province could build improvements so long as they cover the cost of them with their regular income +7 gold.

Of course, this would get into some serious accounting.

Also, there would be the question of what happens when income drops. Would the province have to sell off buildings?

Our budgetary process does need to be worked out and there are many angles to it. We've not done any trading yet but when that starts the accounting will get even more involved.

The idea of a provincial budget is a good one though I would point out that our provinces may be laid out such that we have rich and poor provinces. Since our provincial borders are not being fixed with budgets in mind we should keep an open mind and remain flexible so as not to permanently relegate certain provinces to poverty.

Originally posted by donsig
Since our provincial borders are not being fixed with budgets in mind we should keep an open mind and remain flexible so as not to permanently relegate certain provinces to poverty.

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That is a major concern of mine. Some provinces will not really benefit from certain improvements, and will actually be a drain on the rest of the country, until other improvements, such as courthouses are built. They will also not be able to support many improvements for a while. We will need to work to cause WLTK day celebrations to further reduce this corruption. I will probably want to raise the luxury rate to 10% if we become a republic, for this reason.

I too feel a little concerned about putting some provinces into poverty simple because they don't have courthouses. I'm not sure that if we take over Zululand in the future if it will ever be a fully productive province.
I think I might have a proposal that could prevent that yet accomplish independency.

If the improvment you are seeking will put your provinces annual income into the red you need to seek approval by either the domestic leader or the cabinet. (ie if your provincial gross income is 50 gold and your maintenance [perhaps including garrisons] is 49 and you want to build a catherdral which will put you into the red you need approval from the cabinet or domestic dept.)

Just a thought as it feels like this is brainstorming.

There are pros and cons to that approach, Daaraa. In one sense it is unconstitutional, and usurps some of the power of the governors, as Donsig pointed out. It could also result in a province remaining poor. However, it would help the national economy. I would suggest that, for the time being, governors be required to clearly post build queues the day after the previous turn. If the domestic leader disapproves for this reason, he/she may veto, but the governor is allowed to post a cabinet vote on the subject if he/she sees fit. This would save time by not requiring a cabinet vote in this instance, but allowing for one. Just a thought.

Use the "no building in the red" rule with an exception list of improvements that may always be built. Such buildings would be courthouses and police stations (corruption reduction) and basic buildings such as temples, libraries and harbors.

Originally posted by Shaitan
Use the "no building in the red" rule with an exception list of improvements that may always be built. Such buildings would be courthouses and police stations (corruption reduction) and basic buildings such as temples, libraries and harbors.

Click to expand...

Good idea! We could further expand on that by making certain buildings require prerequisites. For example, a courthouse would be a prerequisite for a marketplace, if the province is in the red. It might actually be better to judge this based on the cities ability to upkeep, rather than the province's.

Just a thought. A strong budget for the Hwy Dept. may help in a few areas mentioned above. A well-connected nation is a happy nation...

My main focus in the "no building in the red" thing was to prevent provinces from becoming drains on the nation without proper authorization.
If the decision were left to me and I had to decide if (from my example with the cathedral) they could build the cathedral and I had 5 gold per turn allocated to my budget, I would sacrifice the 2 (cathedrals cost 3 gold right?) gold per turn.
Otherwise, if building were done un checked without budget constraints we could quickly run into the red and end up having to sell things and that could lead to the bigger headache of deciding what to sell.
As far as being unconstitutional, would it not also seem (although it is not in the constitution) unconstitutional to run up a debt without "authorization" and cripple the nation as a whole all because a governor wanted colesseums in every city?

I like the suggestions made by Shaitan and eyrei. My thoughts were just a very rough idea and you refined them better. Thanks.

I also agree with connecting all cities and building more roads to promote trade. (We might need to build workers for that as "slave" workers work at half the rate.)