Invincible Spearmen

Z

Zidane

Board Lurker since 3-01
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What are all the factors in combat? There must be more then stats, terrain, and veteran status. Once i was fighting the english and the russians. I landed marines all over their continent.
The best thing they had was pikemen, but they mostly had spearmen. Don't you think marines would have no trouble capturing cities? Well, yes they did. I lost half my force in about 5 turns. I would throw 2 or 3 marines at a spearman (open plains, no fortification) and they would all die. All my marines were vets but the spearman was regular. After a while, i started to push into their territory pretty well and i discovered tanks. I airlifted lots of tanks over and put them right into the front lines. (again, all veteran) Alas, my tanks were no match for the dreaded English spearmen. Anyways the one thing i want to know is, HOW does a spearmen kill marines? Or tanks for that matter? Okay, maybe they could kill the marines, but tanks? HOW? How can a spear ev en damage a tank? Why is the computer so tough on defense?:ripper:
 
Originally posted by Zidane
Anyways the one thing i want to know is, HOW does a spearmen kill marines? Or tanks for that matter? Okay, maybe they could kill the marines, but tanks? HOW?
Click to expand...

It happens dude. Could show ya civualator, but.. you probably already know about it.

Sounds like you are warlike. Stack em up more. Kill.

Don't play fair. They have 2 spareman? Go in with 10 tanks. Don't go in with a few here, a few there. Go in with a BUNCH!

All I know about this game is killing. I go in with stacks.

The spareman can be a killer ... I have experienced this. I don't have problems with it though because I just go in with stacks .... and stacks .... and stacks ....
 
Simplest way to get rig of this problem is to download a very interest MOD called the hitpower mod, which changes your unit stats on the basis of what was known as firepower and their technological level. I have had hardly any freak results because of that:goodjob: :goodjob:
 
Zidane, the combat system is strange, and although noone has been able to prove that something is wrong it may well be that there is some sort of bonus to the AI that went undetected until now. I also see hopelessly outdated AI units win or almost win fights where they should have simply rolled over and died. Like Archer on plain attacked by Cavalry - and I loose every tenth fight! Or Swordsman attacking fortified army of 3 eliute Swordsmen in size 12 city on hill across river, taking 3/4 of the armies HP (16) for his own 8. IT happenes all the time, it has been discussed all the time, and the best thing we came up with is doubling (or tripling) your HP in the editor (but then turn battle animation off) to increase the sample (helps a little) and giving HP bonus (again via the editor) to advanced units.

I`m currently trying out mods to the A/D values but that will require quite some testing before I know if it works.
 
Originally posted by Killer
Zidane, the combat system is strange, and although noone has been able to prove that something is wrong it may well be that there is some sort of bonus to the AI that went undetected until now.
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No, there is no such bonus, the combat is 100% fair. This has been proven in the thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21378

I also see hopelessly outdated AI units win or almost win fights where they should have simply rolled over and died.
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It depends on what you mean with "should". In CIV3 as it is designed, all units have a theoretical possibility of winning. I think this is good, as it makes the game more tense.
Like Archer on plain attacked by Cavalry - and I loose every tenth fight!
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I don't believe you, unless you attack with 1 HP Cavalry. If the Archer is fortified, you will loose a bit less than every twentieth battle, assuming both have 3 HP, less if they are veteran. Check the thread above again to see that the AI doesn't cheat with combat results.
Or Swordsman attacking fortified army of 3 eliute Swordsmen in size 12 city on hill across river, taking 3/4 of the armies HP (16) for his own 8. IT happenes all the time, it has been discussed all the time, and the best thing we came up with is doubling (or tripling) your HP in the editor (but then turn battle animation off) to increase the sample (helps a little) and giving HP bonus (again via the editor) to advanced units.
Click to expand...
As has been proved, this doesn't happen all the time, it happens exactly (in the long run) as often as the odds says. I'm quite happy with it, as I don't see much fun in a war where I know the result in advance, but each to his own: if you don't like it, then good for you that it can easily be modded.
 
TheNiceOne: I know all about it, but i do start to wonder. And when I say all the time I mean it. IF you want you can get savs from now on.
 
Originally posted by Killer
I`m currently trying out mods to the A/D values but that will require quite some testing before I know if it works.
Click to expand...

Download my mod :D

/*shameless publicity*/
 
Originally posted by Akka


Download my mod :D

/*shameless publicity*/
Click to expand...

It´s good; I want to try something different though. I`ll post if it works out.

btw: I did check yours to get ideas so I`ll have to credit you anyways :lol:
 
Originally posted by Killer


It´s good; I want to try something different though. I`ll post if it works out.

btw: I did check yours to get ideas so I`ll have to credit you anyways :lol:
Click to expand...

*Infogrames mode on*
I'LL SUE YOU ! GIMME ROYALTIES !
*Infogrames mode off*

:D
 
Originally posted by Akka


*Infogrames mode on*
I'LL SUE YOU ! GIMME ROYALTIES !
*Infogrames mode off*

:D
Click to expand...

Well I *will* stick to the rules of scientific quoteing :lol:

"AS opposed to the Akka (2002) mod this one will seriously increase your playing pleasure and....."

List of literature cited:

AKKA, ? (2002): unknown CFC thread...


:lol:
 
Originally posted by Zidane

I would throw 2 or 3 marines at a spearman (open plains, no fortification) and they would all die. All my marines were vets but the spearman was regular.
Click to expand...

Veteran marine v. regular spearman 97.73%. Twice you say (or was that three times) you lost. Very rare. Either you are very unlucky or inadvertently misstated your results. Post a save game for consideration.
 
Originally posted by Killer
TheNiceOne: I know all about it, but i do start to wonder. And when I say all the time I mean it. IF you want you can get savs from now on.
Click to expand...
Yes, I'd definately like a save or three if you have some that indicates that the AI cheats in combat resulotion. I should be able to make som statisticval analysis (although my free time isn't unlimited, so it may take a while).

I have never seen any saves or hard numbers to back this up before, but have seen hard numbers that quite clearly shows that the AI doesn't cheat here (see the thread mentioned in my previous post), so some saves showing otherwise will be very interesting.
 
Originally posted by Killer


Well I *will* stick to the rules of scientific quoteing :lol:

"AS opposed to the Akka (2002) mod this one will seriously increase your playing pleasure and....."

List of literature cited:

AKKA, ? (2002): unknown CFC thread...


:lol:
Click to expand...

:lol:
Good one, pal :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Yes, I'd definately like a save or three if you have some that indicates that the AI cheats in combat resulotion. I should be able to make som statisticval analysis (although my free time isn't unlimited, so it may take a while).

I have never seen any saves or hard numbers to back this up before, but have seen hard numbers that quite clearly shows that the AI doesn't cheat here (see the thread mentioned in my previous post), so some saves showing otherwise will be very interesting.
Click to expand...

So have I never seen a clear cheat, but I do see a heap of improbable results once it´s important or the AI is hopelessly outteched. Not clear cheats,a nd as I said: I start to wonder, not more.

I`ll start a new game tomorrow and if I come across strange things I`ll mail it to you, but it will definately be too little for a statistical analysis. Just plain bad luck........
 
To me it seems that hopelessly obsolete AI units do get some bonuses. For example it my current game, I lost quite a few cavalry when attacking spearmen and pikemen, but lost very cavalry when attacking musketmen. This is especially strange in that I modded gunpowder units to have +1 hp.

Even stranger was that infantry attacking spearmen or pikemen in open terrain lost quite a few times, even though I modded infantry to have attack 8 and +2 hp!

So probably AI units which are a number of upgrades behind do get a hidden bonus. It would be great if somebody could make a statistical analysis of this, so that to force Firaxis to reveal these bonuses in the Editor.

Note: this probably has something to do with the difficulty level as well, because I haven't experienced this on Chieftain or Regent, but playing on Monarch I had the above-mentioned experience.

EDIT: I read the mentioned thread on combat results, but I still think that sometimes the combat results are too 'stringy'
 
i think the way a.i. cheat is like that.

1.- a.i. lost sevral units ( call it shield)
2.- When a.i. lost to much shield then it get the cheat bonus and sperman beat anything for a few round unless you crush them with artillery prior to attack with ground unit.
3.- i know it look strange and hard to prove but i m pretty sure that s what happen.
4.- so it s just another cheat in the game ( another bricks in the wall)
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
i think the way a.i. cheat is like that.

1.- a.i. lost sevral units ( call it shield)
2.- When a.i. lost to much shield then it get the cheat bonus and sperman beat anything for a few round unless you crush them with artillery prior to attack with ground unit.
3.- i know it look strange and hard to prove but i m pretty sure that s what happen.
4.- so it s just another cheat in the game ( another bricks in the wall)
Click to expand...

This sounds reasonable to me...
 
Another thing that may explain part of it: the graphics are incorrect!
Often, if a cities is size 7 and goes back to 5 the town walls do not show up even though they are there. so I wonder and wonder why my units lose......
 
Originally posted by Zidane
Anyways the one thing i want to know is, HOW does a spearmen kill marines? Or tanks for that matter? Okay, maybe they could kill the marines, but tanks? HOW? How can a spear ev en damage a tank?
Click to expand...
I think it has something to do with the "morale" of your troops. Have you broken many treaties or pacts? Have you betrayed your allies? You see...if your marines and tanks have very low morale, during combat, they may run home to their families or even surrender to your enemy because they think your are murdering those spearmen without righteous cause.;)

It seems to me that your troops don't want to fight for you. If I remember correctly, there is a way you can check the morale of your troops. May be it's one of those right-hand-click popup menu..I'm not sure, I have to look that up tonight.
 
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