where are our citizens?

Are you voting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 38 92.7%
  • No

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .

disorganizer

Deity
Joined
Mar 30, 2002
Messages
4,233
we noticed we have a lot of polls with only 20-25 citizens voting. where is the rest? we restarted the registry only a few weeks ago and have 57 citizens, so why dont the other 32-37 vote?

i would like all citizens reading this post to vote here! Even if they normaly dont vote.

If you state "no" please also post why you dont vote. Maybe we can improve things then.

The poll will be online for 14 days.

and remember:

Its your duty as a citizen to vote ALL polls!
 
Good question. Something I've been wondering about too. I hope they've not all been too sedated by the luxuries available in Pheonatica. :sleep:
 
No offence, but this poll won't work. You will only get 20-25 voters and they will all be yes. :)
 
well, but then we know we only have 20-21 active citizens...
thats one thing... but maybe i can provoke some of the "nono"'s to post why....
 
Originally posted by Zur
Good question. Something I've been wondering about too. I hope they've not all been too sedated by the luxuries available in Pheonatica. :sleep:

I'm to busy using your incense to vote.:smoke::sleep:
 
This sounds like some trick question. :lol:

OT, you can't expect total full participation fr ALL citizens at ALL times. At any time, the attention lvl will rise and wane depending on individual circumstances. That's why we need fully-committed ppl in the govt so that the rest of us lazy citizenry can slip in and out of active participation freely. ;)

Give us a break. ;)
 
I'm to busy using your incense to vote.

OK, no more incense for our citizens. I'm keeping all of it! :satan: :crazyeye: :D
 
Originally posted by disorganizer
we noticed we have a lot of polls with only 20-25 citizens voting. where is the rest? /.../

and remember:

Its your duty as a citizen to vote ALL polls!

I´d like to believe this is not a jail... :rolleyes:

Anyway, you asked so I will try to answer. Right now I am too busy, being governor for Phobos and Deimos in the Civ 2 demo game takes all my time. But that is not really the answer, I quit this game when I still had enough time and for other reasons. I already stated why in the War Church thread, but will try to elaborate my thoughts a little more.

The main reason is that since I can´t participate in the turn chats, I have no influence on how the game is played. I may spend as much time posting in the forum as I want, but since all decisions are taken in the turn chats I can´t influence them anyway. This is something I noticed early, when I still did participate. The military leader had several good thoughts regarding his departement and there were several good and valid discussions on the forum that ended in what I percieved as well thought through and well discussed decisions, with a broad majority of the paricipants behind them. Hence I asumed those ideas would be implemented in the game. But no, the turn chats were dominated by other people who had not even participated in those discussions and the "decisions" where always overrided by the small but loud chat minority. So why would I continue to waste my time participating in useless discussions, when I have plenty of better things to do?

Secondly, I don´t like the "we are better than you" feeling about this game, ie the division between goverment officials and "mere" citizens. This is manifested in discussion threads where only "officials" are allowed to participate and citizens are not welcome. I noticed this first in the military thread, and it truly pissed me off. Having "clean" government threads for referense purposes is a good thing, but when discussions take place everyone should be welcome to participate.

Third, I don´t like the arrogance by which the chat people answered questions about what had happened during the sessions. The only answer I ever got was "read the chat log!". I have neither time nor patience to screen through tons of chat garbage, an accurate summary is a much better option IMO.

To make things better, I suggest you get rid of the turn chats. That is the far most important thing you can do. The duty of the ministers should be to make suggestions regarding their areas to be discussed by both citizens and other officials equally. The ministers then make decisions according to what they percieve as the current consensus. If there is lots of disagreement, polls could be a good idea but otherwise they are not needed. The president plays the game alone (without chats) and has to follow the decisions to the best of his ability. After each session he writes a detailed summary for the rest to read. He should have the right to override forum decisions if the situation demands it. This would ensure all citizens equal chance to influence the game by forum discussions no matter what timezone you live in, and also streamline the game decision processes. If you want a working example, please check out the Civ 2 democracy game.

I realize that you will all give me a good bashing for this. It is to be expected, after all only those who are satisfied with the current situation have stayed. Those who are likely to agree with me left a long time ago.
 
Originally posted by Mr Spice
I already stated why in the War Church thread, but will try to elaborate my thoughts a little more.
Not in the War Church thread I think; I looked thru the whole thread but didn't find anything much. ;)

You know what, Spice? I actually agree with you wholeheartedly. There's pretty much nothing for the average non-chat-attending mere citizen to do to affect the game.
 
Sure I'll vote. But then we should make all polls sticky in a subdirectory.

Oh yeah, and you lose your civil rights when you don't vote: we should change the name of the game in 'game of meritocracy'...
:eek::whipped:
 
i think mr.spice's points are valid. maybe when our officials read the thread, we could change something to the better. dof, gf, +++ ? any comments on this?
 
Spice. Your concerns are very valuable and they are valid. They are also very common. I've been asking a few citizens myself why they haven't been by lately & their concerns were very much like yours. Thanks for the input.

I can't speak for last term, because I was a 'mere' citizen then & didn't follow the game or turn chats as closely. Actually, I almost lost interest completely, before I was nominated for a position in the cabinet. This term, it seems there is a lot going on in each department thread & the citizens forum for everyone to discuss. However, I've noticed far too few citizen postings compared to officials.

Most of the citizens concerns, of the people I have asked, have been mostly about the following points. I've kept them for a couple days, trying to come up with more answers. I haven't been able to come up with much, but your response has prompted the concerns out of me:

- Lack of incentive to come out to the forums or chat turn.
I'm not sure why. It seems citizens have all the power. Voting in polls, asking for actions from their advisors. If citizens aren't supposed to to post in department threads, I think that's wrong.

During chats, citizens should be included in spot polls and the demo game chat. It adds clutter, but would add to the feeling of participation, not as aristocratic. If people come out to flood, they can then be de-voiced. The first time I came out to a turn chat last term, I was told I could do or say nothing. Thanks, guys. Is this the game where everyone has a voice?

- Lack of the sense of power.
Having attended the past few turn chats, I don't think right now much goes on that wasn't planned & posted in each dept threads. As part of the cabinet, I don't feel I'm controlling the game any more than I did when I was a citizen. I'm not the military advisor, but I really don't do much but make suggestions & vote in spot polls.

That said, I am not sure the President is to blame either. He usually seems to be following the advisors' list of demands, not the advice of the cabinet (they are 'advisors', aren't they?). Then, the advisor goes on a tirade if the list isn't followed. It might help if the advisors set more policies for the President to follow & fewer demands. That way, the entire turn would be played over policy - something that is very debatable for citizens all the time, & less to do with opposing points in the short time frame between turns. In order to make this a game for everyone, we may need to take some power away from the advisors. The current system allows for it, if enough citizens object the advisors' plans, but the citizens have not been objecting lately, resulting in the appearance that the advisors are running the game.

The President should have more direction past the first turn. Most of the rounds I've played took about an hour to go through the first turn, reading all the departments' requests & implementing them. Then, after that, there is little to go on for the President, & therefore the rest goes quite quickly, as the President sees fit.

- Lack of understanding of what is going on.
The forums are still quite confusing. There is not a single place where one can get a quick & considerable understanding of what is going on. What happened last turn, without reading the last log? What are the current issues? Turn chats are usually every other day. Sometimes they are missed (for which should be a very heavy penalty). However, this gives officials very little time to get a plan together. If they don't get it out by the morning following a turn chat, there is little time to debate it & change it before the next turn chat comes up. I'm not sure if extending chat intermissions to 3 days will help, but it might. Here's a quote from a disenchanted citizen (not sure why it was chopped):

"ideally I'd love it if there were 2 or 3 sticky threads to follow which contained all the actual "news": what decisions were made (turn and organizational), what happened in turns; then one other place which contained all the "game" decisions and associated polls, so I could visit just the bits that I wanted, not have to read through politics, war churches, and everything else related to any game activity just to get at the actual ev"

The demo game has a lot more potential than what we are living with. I think it should be a place where everyone has a voice. Everyone does right now. How we implement everyone's voice is still debatable...
 
Mr. Spice's and Chiefpaco's comments should be required reading for all government officials.

We are not only losing citizens we are losing government officials as well. Cyc seems to have left goverment for much these same reasons and I wouldn't be surprised if Bill_in_PDX left for similar reasons. General Charis has a government position but has been quiet here lately.

Well, there is hope for our domestic leader has seen the light and is now argueing that those at turn chat have too much power.
 
Originally posted by Mr Spice
The main reason is that since I can´t participate in the turn chats, I have no influence on how the game is played. I may spend as much time posting in the forum as I want, but since all decisions are taken in the turn chats I can´t influence them anyway.
I think I know how you feel. But that isn't totally correct. All major decisions are based on discussions and polls from the forum. Discussions that every citizen can partizipate in. And polls that the citizens "Should" be the major part of. Which they still are, but the cabinet is a large percentage of the citizens.
Allthough, some things are improvised and decided during chat, unexpected and unplanned things. This could be avoided though...

This is something I noticed early, when I still did participate. The military leader had several good thoughts regarding his departement and there were several good and valid discussions on the forum that ended in what I percieved as well thought through and well discussed decisions, with a broad majority of the paricipants behind them. Hence I asumed those ideas would be implemented in the game. But no, the turn chats were dominated by other people who had not even participated in those discussions and the "decisions" where always overrided by the small but loud chat minority.

This is something I don't seem to know about?

I thought that the Military leaders plans last term was the ones that were followed and done the most. We were in war almost the whole last Term and I feel that our military leaders thoughts and plans were well implemented. Or is that just me?

Almost ALL of our funds were used for Military upgrades etc...

So why would I continue to waste my time participating in useless discussions, when I have plenty of better things to do?

I don't think it's a waste of time, I voice my opinion in almost every discussion I have the time to read and participate in, and I vote for EVERY poll. That's where I have the best chance of a say in this game!

Every citizen have a voice, it's time for you to use it!

Secondly, I don´t like the "we are better than you" feeling about this game, ie the division between goverment officials and "mere" citizens. This is manifested in discussion threads where only "officials" are allowed to participate and citizens are not welcome. I noticed this first in the military thread, and it truly pissed me off. Having "clean" government threads for referense purposes is a good thing, but when discussions take place everyone should be welcome to participate.

Having a clean clutter free discussion is one thing. BUt allowing people to discuss is another.
Everyone is allowed to discuss. And even though sometimes some of these discussions shouldn't be held in the officials thread, there are. And as I said everyone can participate in these. Although, I would prefer that these discussions would take place in threads of their own, and then could the discussion be held there, and an URL could be posted in the Officials thread.

Third, I don´t like the arrogance by which the chat people answered questions about what had happened during the sessions. The only answer I ever got was "read the chat log!". I have neither time nor patience to screen through tons of chat garbage, an accurate summary is a much better option IMO.

This is something I havn't experienced.

And yes I would like to do, or have someone to do an accurate summary for me. But since the chat ends at such a late time for me (at 4-5 AM), I just don't feel like it, I only feel like sleeping...

To make things better, I suggest you get rid of the turn chats. That is the far most important thing you can do. The duty of the ministers should be to make suggestions regarding their areas to be discussed by both citizens and other officials equally. The ministers then make decisions according to what they percieve as the current consensus. If there is lots of disagreement, polls could be a good idea but otherwise they are not needed. The president plays the game alone (without chats) and has to follow the decisions to the best of his ability. After each session he writes a detailed summary for the rest to read. He should have the right to override forum decisions if the situation demands it. This would ensure all citizens equal chance to influence the game by forum discussions no matter what timezone you live in, and also streamline the game decision processes. If you want a working example, please check out the Civ 2 democracy game.

I feel that with the TurnChats we can improve the Democracy game. And that is also why they are implimented.
And the civ3 democracy game is already run like the Civ2 game, but with the turnchat as an Addition.

I realize that you will all give me a good bashing for this. It is to be expected, after all only those who are satisfied with the current situation have stayed. Those who are likely to agree with me left a long time ago.

I hope this wasn't considered as a Basshing.

And I also hope that whoever left the game for any reason, or for the specific reasons above, can come back to work with us on these problems. Because without the citizens there is no Nation.
 
I feel I must insert a quick statement here. As the first Cultural Minister, I always tried to give a quick run-down of the key events and information of each chat. I always posted between chats, I put up maps, etc. I tried to include all the main decisions and point to future ones. I guess Mr. Spice never read the Cultural Report.
 
Since my name is mentioned in the thread, I will reply.

donsig, you are correct, many of the issues Mr. Spice addressed were at the heart of me losing interest in the game, though I do come back weekly to check on my beloved PDX.

I think the downfall of this process is the combination of turn chat based decision making along with no useable updates or narrative to describe for the citizens the current status of their nation.

I DO NOT condemn anyone in the cabinet, most specifically Grey Fox and Eyrei, for this situation. I think our fundamental model is flawed for participation by anyone other than those who can attend a turn chat.

There have been multiple instances in the short history of our nation where small poll results have been effected by lobbying during game chat, and the well reasoned thought that went into the posts in a department's thread are ignored. I do think that people get tired of investing the effort in something they do not control.

I think anyone who wasn't at the chat, would find that the chat log itself is relatively worthless as a tool for keeping up. This results in even less understanding of the situation. I don't expect our President to do this himself necessarily, but it is an important part of the game. Without the history of the game and events, what exactly are we simulating here?

I do find that the us vs. them mentality pervades many an organization no matter that it be online or in person. I am disheartened by Grey Fox's recent comment in this thread that citizen's discussions should be shunted off to a different thread and only referenced via a link. Such URL links are easily ignored as our fine officials decide for themselves what to do, usually justified by "time constraints" or the "nature of the changing game".

For me, the bottom line question remains the same from the one I posted in the thread discussing pop rushing. Is this a game where we are watching Grey Fox and Eyrei play it out in the most expiditious way? Or, are we simulating a democracy, where yes, sometimes going back to the people is a pain in the butt, but guess what, that is your job? (okay, sorry, run on question there).

If it is the former, then by all means, get out of the way, as Grey Fox and Eyrei are both better players than myself. If it is a democracy game, then lets focus on playing it.

Just my two cents....not intended as a flame or personal attack.

Bill
Who was Trade Leader when we had only enemies to trade with...
 
A citizen: "ideally I'd love it if there were 2 or 3 sticky threads to follow which contained all the actual "news": what decisions were made (turn and organizational), what happened in turns; then one other place which contained all the "game" decisions and associated polls, so I could visit just the bits that I wanted,

Good idea!

ChiefPaco: citizens should be included in spot polls

No, this would put more power into the hands of the people who can attend turn chats compared to those who can't. :(

ChiefPaco: As part of the cabinet, I don't feel I'm controlling the game any more than I did when I was a citizen.

In the Trade Department thread, most of the decisions are discussed by Chieftess, myself and other government officials. This would be fine except that we're not even getting input from the citizens forum from ordinary citizens! So I find it difficult to implement the wishes of the people but easy to implement the wishes of the government! So maybe Mr. Spice does have a valid point in that citizens do not have enough power to influence the game. This is called a demogame, not a government-controlled civ game.

ChiefPaco: we may need to take some power away from the advisors.

I agree with this. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
 
I always vote and am I a regular poster and reader, but I must say all the bickering has really turned me off lately. Claims of corrupt, power-hungry leaders are ridiculous, IMO. Who would actually try to take over something like this? If one wanted to do that, they would play their own game where they can be a dictator. I think everyone is just trying to do their best for Phoenatica. I don't know of anything here that is 'unfair'. I see a lot of posts where someone is accused of one thing or another, but rarely do I also see supporting evidence. It is not fun to see reams of posts with debates about leaders. I want us to just try and play the game. We have votes on all major issues between turns. During turns the representatives vote. That's what they are there for. IF the people have a problem, then don't vote for that leader.
 
I'm not sure that I will have much to say that hasn't already been said, and it has been a long day for me, so this may not make as much sense as I would like, but I feel that I should express my opinions regarding the concerns expressed by many of our citizens.

First, I had no experience with the Civ2 Demo Game, except to read a few of the threads when they first started talking about this Civ3 game, so I can't compare this game with that. I do remember the points Bill_In_PDX raised about the objectives of this Democracy game during the great pop-rushing debates, and perhaps that is an area that we should discuss in more depth. I am not sure that most of us do have a common understanding of the "goals" or purpose of this game, just a vague sense of how, not why.

I looked at it as an opportunity to play a cooperative game, with different people contributing ideas, experience, and strategies to come up with a result that would be more interesting than a solo game, combined with some elements of roleplaying. I agree that it does not make for the most efficient way of playing the game, but I still think we are all trying to suggest efficient strategies in the game.

As for the issues of citizen power, I think that the power of any citizen is a reflection of the amount of involvement in posting on the threads. If you look at most of our recent additions to the cabinet, such as the new governors and deputies, they were citizens who posted frequently, and therefore recieved nominations. Even Donsig, the leader of our loyal opposition, was recommended for Deputy Domestic Leader, primarily because his many passionate posts showed he was interested and involved in the game.

From this respect, the game rather accurately reflects the real operation of most modern democracies, in that an individual citizen will have only a limited ability to influence legislation or officials, but activists who consistently get involved in issues will be able to get elected first to local office, then move on to national positions. I have seen several posts about "government conspiracies", and frankly I think some of it is unfair. We are only half way through our second term, as more governorships come up and we have more elections, I think you will see a greater accessibility to government positions. I did not even know most of the cabinet members when I joined our nation, but by consistent posting and involvement in different threads, I have gotten to know many people in our nation, and I do believe everyone is trying to do what they feel is best for our nation.

Two points that definitely do need to be addressed are the turn summaries, and the relationship between the turn chats and the forum threads. I subscribe to all official threads, and try to read through all new threads, usually checking the board at least 3 times a day, and I still have trouble figuring out what happened when I miss a turn chat. I would love to be able to say that the new Phoenatican Weekly Standard will solve all this (shameless plug), but it won't, and isn't even intended to. Maybe we need to create a new position for National Press Secretary to attend the chats and post a summary.

Second, the turn chat. Again, it seems that people have different opinions about what the turn chat is supposed to accomplish and/or represent. I thought that most issues were to be decided prior to the turn chat, that is what the official threads and polls are for. Then, the chat is to implement them, and react as needed to events in the game. It sounds as though some think that rather than specific instructions, we should put forth general guidlines, and the president implements those as he sees fit. However, by my understanding of the constitution, the President does not have the power to override a Minister without a cabinet vote. Actually, the president does not have much power after all in our current system. He/she must implement the instructions of the ministers.

Then again, the ministers are supposed to be acting in the will of the people, as expressed in the polls and threads. I am not sure what level of detail this is supposed to to take. Do we poll for every decision, or just the major/controversial ones? Should a governor open a poll for every city to develop a build queue? Or present a slate of builds, and ask for a vote? Or present their recommendations, and if there is no objections, it becomes policy? The last is basically how the U.S. Federal Government issues regulations (Whether or not the U.S. Government is the BEST model for a Democracy is another topic, but it certainly is a recognizable one). If the first choice is the case, I am probably as guilty as anyone, because I generally make my recommendations after analysis, and have only gone to polls when I think the decision will have a major impact or generate debate.

Meanwhile, I think I have rambled on enough, but I want to take whatever steps we can to encourage the participation of all our citizens, and I think it begins with a better common understanding of what we are trying to accomplish/simulate. The turn summary issue is certainly one that we must address immediately, regardless of how the other issues are decided, that is one of the responsibilities of any form of government. (Maybe we were just waiting for the printing press?). The turn chat issue requires more discussion, but is probably more central to the long-term direction of the game.
 
I agree with Mr. Spice on one point, the turn chats are on a difficult time(realy late in some timezones), which makes it difficult for many citizens to participate, the result is that those citizens do not get to influence as much. But who can you blame, the sun?

Secondly, I don´t like the "we are better than you" feeling about this game, ie the division between goverment officials and "mere" citizens.
What is this? As a "mere" citizen I strongly object to these accusations. I feel it`s quite the opposite, the president, military leader and practicly all other elected officials answear and show great interest in the peoples opinions. I wish the governing of Norway(where I live) was close to half as democratic as Phoenatica.

I feel a citizen can greatly influence the game. Just a couple of days ago I opened a thread concerning our military,I got a huge response and the military leader(Falcon02) even started a poll where the citizens could decide whetever to change our defences or not.
 
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