I have just downloaded this mod and have had a few trial games playing to 1000AD. If there are any experienced players of this mod could you recommend tips and strategies. I notice it's much harder for city growth in the early years and choosing a site to start makes you think about placement a little more. Any tips?
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Mod - Double your pleasure (DyP) Strategies ?
- Thread starter Ganja
- Start date
RobO
King
In DyP it is essential to have access to bonus food resources or a floodplain in your starting city. A coastal placement is also doable, as you can build a harbor (when you get Farming) and get three food from a sea tile. Note also that inland seas (lakes) produce three food by default.
A city on grassland/plains with no bonus will not grow beyond size 2 before you can irrigate, and a river placement does not help here. Rivers provide commerce, not food.
Also note that your starting settler treats terrain as roads, and can move through mountains and jungles, so you can afford to move him a bit. The same applies to the settlers you get from goody huts.
So far so good. A lot of the bonus food resources are however not visible at start. If you pick an expansionist civ then you get Farming at start which helps a lot (as it should). Here is the breakdown for v0.47:
Farming reveals Wheat(3), Corn(3), Fish(2), Pearls(1), Coffee(1) and Spices(1)
Domesticaton reveals Cattle(2) and Sheep(1)
Warrior Code reveals Elephants(2)
Pottery reveals Wine(1)
The Wheel reveals Horses(1)
Finally, Crop Rotation reveals Flax(1), but that is not an initial tech
Whether you choose to expand by growing food or conquering is a matter of choice and will determine which techs you go for first. But the initial techs certainly have a large impact on your growth potential.
A city on grassland/plains with no bonus will not grow beyond size 2 before you can irrigate, and a river placement does not help here. Rivers provide commerce, not food.
Also note that your starting settler treats terrain as roads, and can move through mountains and jungles, so you can afford to move him a bit. The same applies to the settlers you get from goody huts.
So far so good. A lot of the bonus food resources are however not visible at start. If you pick an expansionist civ then you get Farming at start which helps a lot (as it should). Here is the breakdown for v0.47:
Farming reveals Wheat(3), Corn(3), Fish(2), Pearls(1), Coffee(1) and Spices(1)
Domesticaton reveals Cattle(2) and Sheep(1)
Warrior Code reveals Elephants(2)
Pottery reveals Wine(1)
The Wheel reveals Horses(1)
Finally, Crop Rotation reveals Flax(1), but that is not an initial tech
Whether you choose to expand by growing food or conquering is a matter of choice and will determine which techs you go for first. But the initial techs certainly have a large impact on your growth potential.
RobO
King
Sorry, I'm not very good at combat and diplomacy. I have however noticed that the Chinese (Militaristic, Industrious) are great early conquerers. They get mining at start and can churn out Braves rather quickly.
Beware of the government changes. Check the data in the changelog - they play somewhat differently than the original ones. For example, Democracy is available early and is the only one with high war weariness.
And you should also note that the rate cap (e.g. 60% for Despotism) applies to all three settings. So, if you set tax to 60% you must distribute the remaining 40% btw science and luxuries.
Beware of the government changes. Check the data in the changelog - they play somewhat differently than the original ones. For example, Democracy is available early and is the only one with high war weariness.
And you should also note that the rate cap (e.g. 60% for Despotism) applies to all three settings. So, if you set tax to 60% you must distribute the remaining 40% btw science and luxuries.
Higher Game
National Socialist
Upgrading is your friend. Because gold is easier to get and rushing stuff is easier, you should upgrade your units instead of making the later units, which require a lot of production.
Kal-el
Deity
Remember your first unit and any units you get from goody huts are Tribe Units not regular settlers. these units treat all terrain as roads so that means they can move 2 tiles per turn.
I don't recommend spending too much time exploring with your tribe unit but taking 1 or even 2 turns to find a better spot can really give you a boost over your neighbors.
Remember, the mod is about making choices. You can choose to build where ever the Computer places you or you can find an even better location. By finding a better growing location you will be able to outstrip those civs who built there first city in a less than optimal position.
this is meant to simulate the actual growth of civilizations. while there were many different early civilizations, only those that were in areas where there was enough surplus food to support specialists. the reason why the fertile crescent was the birth of civilization was because there was enough food to support a faster growth.
if you want to settle on the first turn make sure that there isn't a square within 1 tile of where you start that could be better. With the tribe unit you can still move one and settle in the same turn.
I don't recommend spending too much time exploring with your tribe unit but taking 1 or even 2 turns to find a better spot can really give you a boost over your neighbors.
Remember, the mod is about making choices. You can choose to build where ever the Computer places you or you can find an even better location. By finding a better growing location you will be able to outstrip those civs who built there first city in a less than optimal position.
this is meant to simulate the actual growth of civilizations. while there were many different early civilizations, only those that were in areas where there was enough surplus food to support specialists. the reason why the fertile crescent was the birth of civilization was because there was enough food to support a faster growth.
if you want to settle on the first turn make sure that there isn't a square within 1 tile of where you start that could be better. With the tribe unit you can still move one and settle in the same turn.
Kal-el
Deity
the rate caps affect all three aspects of governement spending. therefore if the rate cap is set to 60% none of the three spending levels, tax, science, or luxury can be set above 60%.
this is why when you are trying to set your science to less than 40% in despotism the game keeps resetting you back. in order to set your science to say 20% you must set you luxury and tax so that neither one is more than 60%.
this is why when you are trying to set your science to less than 40% in despotism the game keeps resetting you back. in order to set your science to say 20% you must set you luxury and tax so that neither one is more than 60%.
Kal-el
Deity
Pay attention to which civ you choose to play. It is even more important for your early development as the Mod has added a new twist with the TSU aspect.
TSUs:
Each civ trait now has a corresponding unique unit. That means that each civ now has two TSUs available to it to help develop your ancient empire.
The Traits and there associated Trait Specific Units:
Commercial : Trader - Very expensive unit that can rush build wonders
Expansionits : Ranger - Alternative to Scout, moves 1 treats all terrain as road
Industrious : Serf - Replaces Worker - Moves 2
Militaristic : Champion - Alternative Military Unit - 2/1/1 3/1/1 HP +1 cost 3
Religious : Shaman - Replaces Clan, not wheeled
Scientific : Greek Fire - Fire Throwing Catapult RoF 3
The TSUs become obsolete at some point during the ancient age, so make good use of them while you have them.
TSUs:
Each civ trait now has a corresponding unique unit. That means that each civ now has two TSUs available to it to help develop your ancient empire.
The Traits and there associated Trait Specific Units:
Commercial : Trader - Very expensive unit that can rush build wonders
Expansionits : Ranger - Alternative to Scout, moves 1 treats all terrain as road
Industrious : Serf - Replaces Worker - Moves 2
Militaristic : Champion - Alternative Military Unit - 2/1/1 3/1/1 HP +1 cost 3
Religious : Shaman - Replaces Clan, not wheeled
Scientific : Greek Fire - Fire Throwing Catapult RoF 3
The TSUs become obsolete at some point during the ancient age, so make good use of them while you have them.
RobO
King
In version 0.84 the starting government (Chiefdom) has the tile penalty. In order to lift the tile penalty you need to discover Dynasticism to get access to Despotism.
The tile penalty effectively removes the third food, shield and commerce that is produced by a square (beware, the editor help file has a different, incorrect, explanation). So, if a tile produces 2 or 3 food, it gives 2 under chiefdom. If it produces 4 food, it will give 3 food under chiefdom.
This has a number of new implications on the starting game.
The first and most important is that city growth is limited. the city tile itself is also subject to the tile penalty, and will only produce 2 food. Please remember that 3 food is needed per citizen beyond the one in the city tile itself. Thus most cities will stop at size 2 where they will have three tiles producing 2 food each. You need a bonus food resource or a floodplain to grow a larger city. Keep that in mind when selecting city locations. Use rightclick to check on the terrain yield before committing that settler unit.
Since the settler units (clan / shaman) only require one pop (until you discover Dynasticism), this does not slow growth too much. This also implies that you can start building a settler unit with a size 1 city if you time it with the growth to size 2. I sometimes shift a citizen from production to commerce to be able to produce a settler sooner, but I'm not sure if this is a wise decision in the grand scheme of tings as it leaves me with one less unit. You will be able to build a fair number of cities but they will be small while you stay in Chiefdom.
Grassland produces 3 food in 0.84 and plains produce 2 food and 1 shield. Thus, under chiefdom, grassland seems inferior. This is not quite true, however. Firstly, grassland will produce 3 food once the tile penalty is lifted. Secondly, bonus food resources apply fully when on grassland, while on plains their first bonus food is lost to the tile penalty. Thirdly, grassland with a shield bonus are obviously a better bargain than plains.
Floodplains produce 4 food (i.e. 3 under chiefdom) and are very good starting locations (they also provide commerce due to the river). The downside is the disease ofc.
Harbors are a bit tricky when you have the tile penalty. Since coastal squares produce 2 food, the extra food provided by a harbor is useless while the tile penalty is effect. Unless there is a food bonus in the water (fish, pearls). In that case, the harbor will increase the yield of these tiles.
Money should not be a problem, and you should be able to support a 60% science rate under chiefdom. The exception is right at start, where you may need to shift your single citizen from shield production to commerce to avoid a deficit, unless you have a commerce bonus (resource or river). This problem should go away once your city grows to size 2 or you build another.
There is no unit maintenance in chiefdom, so you can build as many units as you like. This government is actually reasonably well suited for initial conquest, but in order to get the military techs you'll need to divert your effort from getting Despotism. And beware that once you change to Despotism you will have to pay maintenane for your army.
As money is not so hot an issue (though it always has it's uses) you may consider getting Farming before The Wheel if you don't have any of them at start. Mining is not so important to get right from the start IMO (though you will need it to get to Dynasticism) unless you want to do a military campaign. Warrior code reveals Elephants, and the food from these can be useful.
Finally, remember that Writing no longer gives you embassies. Dynasticism does.
The tile penalty effectively removes the third food, shield and commerce that is produced by a square (beware, the editor help file has a different, incorrect, explanation). So, if a tile produces 2 or 3 food, it gives 2 under chiefdom. If it produces 4 food, it will give 3 food under chiefdom.
This has a number of new implications on the starting game.
The first and most important is that city growth is limited. the city tile itself is also subject to the tile penalty, and will only produce 2 food. Please remember that 3 food is needed per citizen beyond the one in the city tile itself. Thus most cities will stop at size 2 where they will have three tiles producing 2 food each. You need a bonus food resource or a floodplain to grow a larger city. Keep that in mind when selecting city locations. Use rightclick to check on the terrain yield before committing that settler unit.
Since the settler units (clan / shaman) only require one pop (until you discover Dynasticism), this does not slow growth too much. This also implies that you can start building a settler unit with a size 1 city if you time it with the growth to size 2. I sometimes shift a citizen from production to commerce to be able to produce a settler sooner, but I'm not sure if this is a wise decision in the grand scheme of tings as it leaves me with one less unit. You will be able to build a fair number of cities but they will be small while you stay in Chiefdom.
Grassland produces 3 food in 0.84 and plains produce 2 food and 1 shield. Thus, under chiefdom, grassland seems inferior. This is not quite true, however. Firstly, grassland will produce 3 food once the tile penalty is lifted. Secondly, bonus food resources apply fully when on grassland, while on plains their first bonus food is lost to the tile penalty. Thirdly, grassland with a shield bonus are obviously a better bargain than plains.
Floodplains produce 4 food (i.e. 3 under chiefdom) and are very good starting locations (they also provide commerce due to the river). The downside is the disease ofc.
Harbors are a bit tricky when you have the tile penalty. Since coastal squares produce 2 food, the extra food provided by a harbor is useless while the tile penalty is effect. Unless there is a food bonus in the water (fish, pearls). In that case, the harbor will increase the yield of these tiles.
Money should not be a problem, and you should be able to support a 60% science rate under chiefdom. The exception is right at start, where you may need to shift your single citizen from shield production to commerce to avoid a deficit, unless you have a commerce bonus (resource or river). This problem should go away once your city grows to size 2 or you build another.
There is no unit maintenance in chiefdom, so you can build as many units as you like. This government is actually reasonably well suited for initial conquest, but in order to get the military techs you'll need to divert your effort from getting Despotism. And beware that once you change to Despotism you will have to pay maintenane for your army.
As money is not so hot an issue (though it always has it's uses) you may consider getting Farming before The Wheel if you don't have any of them at start. Mining is not so important to get right from the start IMO (though you will need it to get to Dynasticism) unless you want to do a military campaign. Warrior code reveals Elephants, and the food from these can be useful.
Finally, remember that Writing no longer gives you embassies. Dynasticism does.
CivAgamemnon
King
I find playing Chiefdom at the beginning to be a bit less constricting than it was before, thanks to the adjustment that was made for .84.
Usually if you can get a good growth bonus nearby, you can grow quite quickly, and having the settler units that are available only require a pop hit of 1 when you make them certainly does help. You can use that particular city as a "settler" factory and just pump them out one after another, subject to growth limitations. That does help a great deal.
Usually if you can get a good growth bonus nearby, you can grow quite quickly, and having the settler units that are available only require a pop hit of 1 when you make them certainly does help. You can use that particular city as a "settler" factory and just pump them out one after another, subject to growth limitations. That does help a great deal.
If you are commercial their is a far easier way to gain Sun Tzu's Art of War. Due to the Merchant unit costing 700 sheilds, and Sun Tzu's costing 840, building the merchant and then rushing the wonder will then save you 140 shields, and therefore will give commercial civilizations an edge in gaining that wonder.
CivAgamemnon
King
Good tip there, Curufinwe. I'll have to keep that in mind.
RobO
King
I had a new experience yesterday with 0.84: Going broke.
I played Babylonians (Scientific, Religuous) on a small map with standard terrain and one less AI. I went directly for Despotism and got it around 1150BC. I then got Literature and started building a lot of Libraries. They cost the same as Obelisks for a Scientific civ (half price), provide a lot more culture and give a science bonus to boot. Seemed like a great bargain. In fact it wasn't, and I will explain why.
After a while, I started going into a deficit. The Zulus attacked and a Bowman provoked a Golden Age, which helped a little, but it was still bad. I had a decent fortune to start with, but there was little I could do to remedy the problem. I couldn't go over 60% tax. I built some toll houses, but their maintenance would offset most of the benefit. I researched currency to get tax collectors. I disbanded a few units, added a few workers to cities and redistributed the citizens to increase commerce. It was a p.i.t.a., and when the Golden Age finished it got really intolerable. That was around 200AD.
I then started to seriously analyse the problem (better late than never), and the cause hit me: Libraries costs 3 maintenance and I simply could not afford so many at the time. For two reasons: Insufficient city size and lack of trade bonus.
It makes sense in a way, but it may also require a bit of rebalancing because grassland no longer provides commerce.
I played Babylonians (Scientific, Religuous) on a small map with standard terrain and one less AI. I went directly for Despotism and got it around 1150BC. I then got Literature and started building a lot of Libraries. They cost the same as Obelisks for a Scientific civ (half price), provide a lot more culture and give a science bonus to boot. Seemed like a great bargain. In fact it wasn't, and I will explain why.
After a while, I started going into a deficit. The Zulus attacked and a Bowman provoked a Golden Age, which helped a little, but it was still bad. I had a decent fortune to start with, but there was little I could do to remedy the problem. I couldn't go over 60% tax. I built some toll houses, but their maintenance would offset most of the benefit. I researched currency to get tax collectors. I disbanded a few units, added a few workers to cities and redistributed the citizens to increase commerce. It was a p.i.t.a., and when the Golden Age finished it got really intolerable. That was around 200AD.
I then started to seriously analyse the problem (better late than never), and the cause hit me: Libraries costs 3 maintenance and I simply could not afford so many at the time. For two reasons: Insufficient city size and lack of trade bonus.
It makes sense in a way, but it may also require a bit of rebalancing because grassland no longer provides commerce.
Isak
Civ4 Scenario Designer
RobO is right that the Money issue still needs to be balanced. But I also think we will have to adjust to the fact that the Wealth improvement is no longer the Improvement we only use when there is no longer anything else to build - in fact the opposite should be the case: That we no longer have the ability to easily build all improvements in all cities, due to lack of Money or Production.
Yes, I found that out in my first game on monarch level. You have to really pace yourself and only build what you can afford and really need. The shrine and obelisk come in very very handy this way because they have no upkeep. Barracks should only be built in towns that are going to be churning out units to attack. If you're not going to war, don't build barracks. If your civ consists of size 2 cities mostly, don't build libraries.
I don't think it's that unbalanced, it just means you need more self-control. It really pays off when you finally get in a good cycle and start making more and more money as a democracy and then you can suddenly afford to build a lot of stuff. It's all about self-control. For me the money issue is fully balanced at the moment, and making it any easier would spoil it all.
Tips? I'm playing on a deity level atm, huge map, with the aztecs and their mighty Jaguar Warriors. A good tip imho in this situation (and any where you have a cheap fighting unit off the start) is to not switch to despotism while you can still bully your neighbours, but keep on hassling them and sucking tech out of them when they sue for peace (be careful not to wipe them out totally though... the best neighbour is a weak neighbour with no access to iron or horses but still AI so that he is in the AI's tech trade circle). I think I'm going to switch straight to republic and disband most of my jaguar warriors (I'm researching it right now while still bullying the indians).
Oh, and beware one thing... can't remember which tech gives you missionaries instead of shamans, but that is an evil tech to avoid... stops your expansion faster than anything else... took me a few turns to figure out why my size 2 cities (ie most of my cities) could not build settlers anymore...
Yeah, anyway, so stay in chiefdom until your vast armies of early units become utterly useless (eg you start finding pikemen or you can't be arsed to bully your neighbours anymore) because if you switch to another govt you won't be able to support a big army anymore for a while, while you readjust.
Daniel
I don't think it's that unbalanced, it just means you need more self-control. It really pays off when you finally get in a good cycle and start making more and more money as a democracy and then you can suddenly afford to build a lot of stuff. It's all about self-control. For me the money issue is fully balanced at the moment, and making it any easier would spoil it all.
Tips? I'm playing on a deity level atm, huge map, with the aztecs and their mighty Jaguar Warriors. A good tip imho in this situation (and any where you have a cheap fighting unit off the start) is to not switch to despotism while you can still bully your neighbours, but keep on hassling them and sucking tech out of them when they sue for peace (be careful not to wipe them out totally though... the best neighbour is a weak neighbour with no access to iron or horses but still AI so that he is in the AI's tech trade circle). I think I'm going to switch straight to republic and disband most of my jaguar warriors (I'm researching it right now while still bullying the indians).
Oh, and beware one thing... can't remember which tech gives you missionaries instead of shamans, but that is an evil tech to avoid... stops your expansion faster than anything else... took me a few turns to figure out why my size 2 cities (ie most of my cities) could not build settlers anymore...
Yeah, anyway, so stay in chiefdom until your vast armies of early units become utterly useless (eg you start finding pikemen or you can't be arsed to bully your neighbours anymore) because if you switch to another govt you won't be able to support a big army anymore for a while, while you readjust.
Daniel
Kal-el
Deity
you can get them at the DyP website. civ3.bernskov.com
