Citizen discussion: Wonder building!

The last turn chat stopped after 9 turns because we reached a critical juncture in our wonder building program. To summarize what has happened so far:

We started Copernicus's Observatory in Fox Nest according to a citizen poll. We had plans to start Smith's Trading Co. in PDX once it completed a bank. There was also talk of pre-building a wonder (using the palace) in Pherris.

Practically all other countries were also working on Copernicus. Hiawatha finished it in Salamanca while we were still 15 turns away. Fox Nest was switched to Smith's Trading Co. Some countries cascaded to Magellan's. We have had no reports of anyone starting Smith's besides us.

We have acquired navigation and can also start Magellan's Voyage though niether Fox Nest or PDX can build that project. We currently have a bank in Pherris and 4 cities (PDX, Chie, Khatovar and Eyr) are building banks. The last will take 22 turns. Once they are complete we can build Wall St.

We are 12 turns from physics and would then need Theory of Gravity for Newton's University. We are 12 from metallurgy and would need militrary tradition for the academy. We are ten from democracy and would need free artistry for Shalespeare's Theatre. Our science rate is currently 30% so these times could be shaved but there are reasons for upping the lux rate and keeping the tax rate high as well. (Only 2 of our top producing cities are in WLTKD. Thebes is not in WLTKD. We still have 30 pike to upgrade at a total cost of 1800 gold. We also have CAP to fund.)

Here is the info on our top shield producing cities:

City: shields/turn produced; currently working on and turns till finished; notes

Fox Nest: 20 s/t; Smith's in 23 turns; Can switch to bank without losing shields. Bank would be ready next turn. Size 12, won't grow.

Pherris: 17 s/t; knight in 5 turns; could do Smith's in 36 or palace in 53, WLTKD

PDX: 15 s/t; bank in 1 turn; could do Smith's in 30 or the palace in 50, site chosen by citizen's for Smith's, size 12 won't grow

Chie: 10 s/t, bank in 9 turns; not growing, could do Smith's in 53 or palace in 83

Khatovar: 10 s/t; bank in 12 turns; not growing, Smith's in 56, palace in 86

Malinalco: 9 s/t; harbor in 2 turns; Magellan in 38, Smith's in 60, palace in 93, WLTKD, will need an aqueduct to grow

Shailonegha: 8 s/t; knight in 5 turns; Magellan in 46, Smith's in 71, palace in 109

New Falcon's Haven: 7 s/t; temple in 3 turns; Magellan in 52, Smith's in 81, palace in 123

Eyr: 7 s/t; bank in 22 turns; Magellan in 57, Smith's in 85, palace in 128

So, which wonders should we try to build where?

My opinions:

Fox's Nest: Continue to build Smith's.

Pherris: Work on Palace in anticipation of Newton's.

PDX: After bank is built, build something expensive, but unwanted, in anticiaption of Wall STreet, if possible.

Malinalco: Let finish harbour, then start Magellan's.

I'm thinking if we got some workers down to Khatovar and irrigated the desert tiles and then maybe a plain tile, the shield production increase would boost Khat into a good wonder pre-build position. Maybe Newton's, maybe Wall St., but I'd really like to see Shak's Theatre there too. I really think the Academy should go in Pherris.

Since our tax/science/luxury rates will affect our wonder building strategy here is some info on them:

At 0% luxury, Pherris and Malinalco are in WLTKD
At 10% luxury, Eyr and Shailonegha enter WLTKD
At 20% luxury, Fox Nest and New Falcon's Have enter WLTKD

(Note this is without any tweaking or additional luxury imports.)

Here are the numbers for the various combinations (current setting in bold):

tax.science.luxury, turns till physics done, gold/turn surplus or deficit

9.1.0, 37, +227
8.2.0, 37, +187
7.3.0, 12, +103
6.4.0, 9, +63
5.5.0, 7, +16
4.6.0, 6, -11
3.7.0, 5, -57

9.0.1, 37, +187
8.1.1, 37, +153
7.2.1, 18, +110
6.3.1, 12, +65
5.4.1, 9, +24
4.5.1, 7, -19
3.6.1, 6, -50

8.0.2, 37, +147
7.1.2, 37, +110
6.2.2, 18, +70
5.3.2, 12, +23
4.4.2, 9, -18
3.5.2, 7, -62

First the people have decided to build atleast one wonder in PDX so we should build one.
I think we should build newtons university in PDX, becouse it is a good science city.I think we should prebuild newtons university direct not complete the bank, and we could swith bank to New falcons heaven and it would complete in 18 turns so we still could build the wall street in 22 turns.
Here are some calculations:
In PDX with the current production we could complete newtons university in 17 turns if we swith before building bank, and it would take 27 turns to build it if we complete the bank first.
We should try to rush science to Theroy of Gravity and when we get it the wonder will be complete in PDX

The Trade Dept. has outlines our possible trades here.

Thanks, Zur!

This is what I say

Fox Nest - Smith's until we Get Gravity, and then work on Newton's

PDX - Palace until the Nest switches from Smith, then we go for Smith's

Why? The Nest is a better Science producer than PDX, by a at least 10 points, IIRC.

I think that is a decent proposition Falcon. We really do need to have Newton's in Fox Nest I suppose, and 6 culture would help us a bit. Smiths is what we really need though, but only 3 culture, still, with that increased gold more surplus and we can raise science a bit to.

No prob, donsig.

I'm not confident that we'll be able to beat the race to Smiths'. Currently, we would take 20-40 turns depending on where it is built. We might be able to hold on to Economics for another 10 turns or so. that would give the AI 10-30 turns to overtake us, which is plausible since most of them are prebuilding.

The situation is highly confusing due to the large no. of wonders possible in the near future and since we could also be buying techs. Perhaps we should consider doing some recon on the more likely cities which may beat us to the wonder race instead of having to do so much shadow boxing. It will also reduce the risk of wasting shields.

I suggest lifting the science rate to 60%(or even higher) until we get Theory of Gravity.There are two reasons to do so:

1) Only by doing this we can fit the Newton's University in Fox Nest. Obviously, shield saved only need 13 turns to hit 400, which means we only have 13 turns to acquire the technologies needed. I don't see any good in overproduction, esp in our largest shield producer.

2) We will be advanced in technology after this science rush. We can sell the techs to our neighbours after the immediate building of the University, or retain the tech lead. Loss of income during the science rush will be offset if we lower the science to 0% for a few turns.

Originally posted by Falcon02
This is what I say

Fox Nest - Smith's until we Get Gravity, and then work on Newton's

PDX - Palace until the Nest switches from Smith, then we go for Smith's

Why? The Nest is a better Science producer than PDX, by a at least 10 points, IIRC.

Click to expand...

Ok thats a good idea and it follows the poll that shown that the people want smiths in PDX. if PDX cant have newtons then we follow the poll and build smiths instead, but shall PDX finish the bank first?
I say no we can build the bank in New falcons heaven and still have enough banks to build the wall street.

Here are the costs to recon the cities currently working on Magellan:

Bombay: 150 gold
Bapedi: 124 gold
Nineveh: 170 gold
Grand River: 61 gold
Argos: 146 gold

In the last save there are still many working on Copernicus though it was built in Salamanca. I'm not sure if any of these will cascade to Magellan. Some of these cities may prove to be competition for Smith's or Newton's.

I'm worried if PDX starts Smiths from scratch at this point, we'll lose the race again. I see the greater value of having Newton's in Fox Nest, but I'd rather have both than none. I suggest we stay with Smith's and start the Newton's prebuild in PDX after its bank is finished. That said....

I will also propose building Shakespeare's Theatre. At least as a backup plan. In a game of culture, it is the highest cultural building available and will likely cement our status as the cultural civ of the world. PDX also seems a perfect place to benefit from the extra contentment. I'd rather build the Theatre than Smiths, to stay focussed on our cultural goals. Our economic situation seems strong enough to me.

My proposal:
After the bank, PDX prebuilds for Shakespeare's Theatre (8 culture).

Fox Nest continues work on Smiths. May be switched to Newton's if we get there in time.

Build Wall Street when we get there.

I also vote against Magellan. Our poor navy won't be benefitting much.

I wouldn't mind starting Magellan's. We can't build it in our major wonder contending cities so it wouldn't affect our strategies there. If we start Magellan in Malinalco or another city we could consider it a pre-build for something else (Wall St perhaps).

Originally posted by chiefpaco
My proposal:
After the bank, PDX prebuilds for Shakespeare's Theatre (8 culture)

Click to expand...

Isn't that 6 culture for the theatre?
Anyways, it will be a great boost to our culture and that 8 content faces is good. However, we can't claim all 3 wonders probably.

I'm more than certain the the maximum for any building is 6 culture per turn (I pay attention to those kinds of things when they involve culture) and Newton's has the exact same one and far better benefits. The Eight Happy faces would be very useful in keeping that city in WLTKD and would keep it from disorder, also it would help keep a Nuclear power plant safe since it would stay out of disorder. But please can we try very hard to get at least one of these, preferably Newton's.

Originally posted by Skywind

Isn't that 6 culture for the theatre?
Anyways, it will be a great boost to our culture and that 8 content faces is good. However, we can't claim all 3 wonders probably.

Click to expand...

The civopedia & my editor (1.21) say 8. I think they upped it in one of the patches. Do we want another civ to get the 8 culture/turn?

Another note about Magellan's. Some civs already are building it & have cascaded to it. I'm not sure it is a race we would necessarily win.

Drat, a lover of culture bested in matter of culture. My editor says the same, so I believe that that is the truth. Therefore we should put much effort into securing this wonder, 8 per turn is not something we want anyone else to get.

I agree that we could prebuild Shakespeare's Theatre in PDX, But then we need to boost science so we can build the Shakespeare's Theatre. Is this right sicence order?
Physics - Theory of Gravity - Democracy - Free Artistry

Perfect science order, but you'll have the military department mad that we're not researching metallurgy or Military Tradition.