Public Investigation#4: Impeachment of the president

Should we impeach donsig?

  • Aye (Yes, thow him out of the office)

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • Nope (No, leave him alone)

    Votes: 15 57.7%
  • Abstain

    Votes: 5 19.2%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
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disorganizer

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As you all noticed, the president vetoed against an amendment to the constitution which was based on a citizen poll decision to change the constitution which passed with more than 15 yes votes to 4 no-votes. The ammendments also passed the cabinet-poll with 6 yes votes.
While acting like this, he did not make his decison based on the opinion polls, but on his own thinkings.
This is a MAYOR violation of the constitution section J article 1, which will lead to an impeachment.

We do here not decide about his proposal, which he could have voice at any time to citizenry, but about him declining a citizen-decision.

If the decision is "Aye", we will start the Impeachment process. If the decision is "Nope", we dont take any action. You can always "Abstain" the vote.

I started this discussion thread at the same time as the poll because this incident is urgent and i will not go off my thoughts, so there will always be one negative voice which forces a poll. I believe there are more than one.

Discussion is still wanted and needed here!

Quote from the Constitution:
Section J: Impeachment
Article 1: It may become evident that an elected official isn't making decisions based on the results of the opinon polls.
Article 2: Anyone can call an impeachment hearing and pose evidence against an elected official.
Article 3: The accused is given an opportunity to defend themselves.
Article 4: A Moderator acts as Judge and initiates an Impeachment Cabinet Vote.
Article 5: The remaining council members vote.
Article 6: While an Impeachment trial is ongoing the deputy leader takes over for the leader in question.

Since this is an urgent issue, this poll is only up for 2 days to leave us enough time for the impeachment-process. Sorry for that.
 
donsigs action is a mayor violation of the rules. and the mayor princple of the game: citizenry has all power.

and it will also be a sign for our citizens:
if we let him go with this, the sign says: see, the president has all the power. if something is not in his will, he can change it no matter what we want.
if we impeach him, the sign will comply with the principles of a DEMOCRACY game. the citizenry has the power!

So i say: POWER TO THE PEOPLE! AYE!


and to make something clear:
im not contra donsigs proposals, but strictly against the way he started them!
 
Dis, you are taking this too personally and turning it into a kangaroo court. This quick polling and impeachment process is uncalled for. Donsig is trying to help the nation, and he was within his constitutional limits of power. I hope we do not see an impeachment come to fruition. It is not called for as most of these investigations aren't. Although they serve a good and noble purpose and may be vitally needed one day, I don't believe Donsig should be taken down for exercising his power.
 
Perhaps we need better clarification here in the Constitution itself. Leaders must follow the results of their own polls (and/or polls dealing with their departmental authority). Cabinet Votes and the Presidential Veto are votes of concience where a Leader makes the best choice they can - not necessarily the most popular choice. Although I'm not thrilled about the veto I have no problem with Donsig's actions.
 
well, IMHO J-1 is not only for leaders, but also for the president. he also has to decide in the will of the citizenry. If he sees an aspect of the constitutional amendments, ok. He can voice them like every citizen or leader. But in this case he misused his powers because the decision was already taken by citizenry.
I know he did not want to harm our nation, but J-1 is clear and simple!
 
Even tho, I strongly oppose the use of the VETO. I believe that Donsig acted within the provisions of article 5 which is clearly meant to override other matters as it presently is stated.
Therefore, I do not feel this is an impeachment matter, although it may be argued that it is under the article Dis refers to. Since the people's will was flouted Dis certainly has a point. Clearly this is a case of constituional ambiguity.


I think the crux of this matter is the veto must be eliminated to prevent this situation from occuring in future. :egypt:

The veto must go!
 
or we could handle those situation like here. with a public investigation. maybe a new constitution should automate the process of investigation, like we decided for the chats.
 
Now this was quick. I didn't even see an investigation thread before this poll. :)

Here's the article:

Article 5: Legislative votes are called by any Council member or the President. An affirmative result alters or amends the Constitution. The President can veto a legislative vote, preventing a change in the constitution.

That thread doesn't seem to state whether or not it's a Citizen's Poll or a Cabinet Poll. I abstain.

Article 3: The President may initiate certain Council votes.

This also goes with what Donsig said. He did initiate a council vote. This isn't clear on what and what can not be voted on.

Article 4: At-large council members are responsible for representing the will of the people in Cabinet Votes. They will poll for popular opinion on prospective Cabinet issues and MUST vote according to those poll results.

This only says At Large councilmembers are responsible for representing the voice of the people.




BTW, dis, shouldn't MAYOR be MAJOR? :)
 
you are right. but i stand to my typos and do not correct it ;-P

other points: as i said, the investigation was not usefull as i will not go back from my point of view to start the poll. the pre-poll-investigation is used to determine if a poll is necessarry or not.

we discuss here. since a guilty must be an impeachent, no discussion about punishment is needed. this seems to be the only clear point in our rules.

But the J-1 article also is there. For all officials to comply to citizen-opinion. This opinion was clearly pointed out in the citizen poll. If it would have been a close poll between yes and no, i would say it was ok to veto. but with over 10 votes difference, the public opinion was clear enough.
 
If you can't remain impartial disorganizer, then maybe I should think about closing this citizens section down. You need to follow the same proceedure for every action that is brought up. You cannot skip an element of it because you feel strongly about it.

First a discussion should have been had to determine if a poll is even necessary, then a poll could be made.

Since there obviously would not have been a consensus to start with, I can see why you went stright to a poll, but, in the future, all of these matters need to follow the same process. Discussion, then, if warranted, a poll. That gives everyone time to give reasons for both sides before any voting is done.

Now, I have two options here, leave this one as is, or close it and move the posts in here to a new discussion thread. I'll go with the first for now, but either way, this is a warning, please don't do it again. Everyone gets the same process, no matter who or what its about. If anyone needs to discuss my post further, please PM me.
 
Originally posted by Chieftess
That thread doesn't seem to state whether or not it's a Citizen's Poll or a Cabinet Poll. I abstain.
Legislative votes are a type of Cabinet Vote. Each type of Cabinet Vote has rules on who can call it and what it can do. The Legislative vote is the only one with a veto provision.
 
we have all prospered under the wise and benevolent rule of our president. i am outraged at this poll, and the leaders of the terrorist opposition


(unless they win, in which case I support their friedom fighting tactics to make the world a safer and better place for us all)
 
I thank disorganizer for his strong service to all Phoenaticans, however, this immediate poll with no discussion or detailed explaination is unfair and a break from the previous investigations.

After reviewing the issue, I think donsig acted entirely within his rights as President set forth in the constitution. This is a not a vague interpretation of that document either, as the President clearly, in black letter law, has the right to do what he did.

If you disagree with his actions (and I frankly am in favor of scrapping the whole turn chat concept at this point, versus improving it), then we as citizens have a right to make a change at the next election, or ask for impeachment at such time as he has actually violated the constitution.

Bill
...in PDX
 
of course we could have had a discussion. maybe for weeks. as u all can see in the rules for this investigations, only ONE negative voice is enough to start a poll. since i would have been this voice, it seemed useless to me to start a discussion first. instead, to speed up things, i though it would make more sense to poll and discuss simultaniously.
i just wanted to bring this issue off the table quickly.
btw: there would have been no need for an investigation. i could also have directly adressed a mod to imediately start the impeachment process. this would have thrown donsig out of the office for as long as the process would have been running (cabinet-vote etc.) which would it minimum have been one week.
And you state im unfair? No. Following the constitution striktly by me would have been unfair. Instead, i made an opinion poll BEFORE starting the impeachment process.
Think about it.
OVER AND OUT
 
OK. I believe the discussion is becoming a little over-heated. Maybe we should throw a bucket of water on the discussion and just vote. And thank you Dis for not going straight to impeachment.
 
Originally posted by disorganizer
btw: there would have been no need for an investigation. i could also have directly adressed a mod to imediately start the impeachment process. this would have thrown donsig out of the office for as long as the process would have been running (cabinet-vote etc.) which would it minimum have been one week.
And you state im unfair? No. Following the constitution striktly by me would have been unfair. Instead, i made an opinion poll BEFORE starting the impeachment process.
Think about it.
OVER AND OUT

I've thought about it, and still disagree with you.

Just because a citizen complains to a Mod (and gee, I'll bet that happens at least once a day), doesn't mean there will be an immediate impeachment, which is what you are implying here. Especially when the President has acted as directly allowed in the constitution.

I'll follow Cyc's lead though, and state that I have voted, and I hope this vote will be quickly concluded.

Bill
 
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