all power to citizencry (PPO discussion 1)

Sponsored by the Power to the People Organization (PPO), we would like you, our citizens, to discuss one of the issues of our manifest in here. We would like to work out a working ammendment or at least a list of items to be implemented we could campaign for.

Topic:
ALL POWER TO CITIZENRY

What does this mean?
We would like to introduce a system which allow total controll of citizenry over any decissions being taken in the game. This should be in a kind of basis-democracy, which not implemented today in real life. We are aware that this will maybe slow the game down, but will give the great benefit of great direct influence by our citizens on the way the game runs.

How can we implement this?
That is what we would like to find out. We will update a summary of the proposals in post#2 of this thread during discussion. As we come to a conclusion, this summary is taken to a campaing and maybe even to a constitutional amendment.

Where does version 1.0 come from?
I just put my thoughts and thought collected in various mails, pms and chats together. To be changed whenever you like.

What should we do now?
Start discussing the issue. No point here is fixed, this is all based on discussion.

Proposal 1.0
16.06.2002

1) A chat is used to play out the game. The player in duty can stop the chat at any time to return to forum.
2) All decisions in the game must be taken to the forum if possible. The only reason a spot-vote in the turn-chat can be used is when there is a event popping up in pre-turn and it is not possible to save the game at this moment.
3) On a chat spot-vote, all citizens are equally allowed to vote.
4) If polls are missing or invalid for a chat, the chat has to be canceled/stopped if possible.
5) The decisions are taken in forum via polls lasting for a minimum of 2 days. Preceeding the polls a discussion should be held for a minimum of 1 day.
6) The polls must meet a yet to be defined quorum rule for being valid. Invalid polls can not be used for decissions.

Every action must be taken to the Forum?

yes. basis democracy instead of a representative one (like now). this issue also impacts the PPO #2 issue.
Good planning beforehand will be needed. This is a challenge for the "Leaders" then. Or the Citizen-Groups running the departments (see PPO#2).

Each chat turn will then stop automatically at every action or possible action that comes up. Chat turns will tend to be less than one complete game turn.

No, it is up to the peoples wishes before the chat begins to prioritize moves and decide what will be done. The number of turns per session will be decreased, but there will be more chat sessions. This will do wonders to reduce the situations you mention shaitan.

Originally posted by Immortal
No, it is up to the peoples wishes before the chat begins to prioritize moves and decide what will be done.

Click to expand...

So who will post all of the necessary polls if we don't have leaders? How will you attract leaders if you offer nothing in return but a lot of typing?

While I like the idea of giving as much power as possible to the citizens, we can only give us much as the average citizen is willing to take. Some may not want the responsibility of posting all the time. The leaders need to be there to make decisions that are not made on the forum, whether because they were unforseen or because there was too little interest in the issue to get citizen participation.

How does your propsal work with Duke's new approach to chat turn spot votes?

see dukes post. i see those spots only for the popup decisions to be taken (simple majority should be enough there though).
and Duke is not god. If we decide otherwise he should follow our wishes.
This proposal is in the same sense as his: taking more power to citizenry. We just go a step further.
This proposal would also fit a closing of the chat as he proposed first, as it will also work without a chat, just with the restriction that popup events will be done by the president only without help.

@eyrei:
how do citizen groups work?

Originally posted by Immortal
No, it is up to the peoples wishes before the chat begins to prioritize moves and decide what will be done. The number of turns per session will be decreased, but there will be more chat sessions. This will do wonders to reduce the situations you mention shaitan.

Click to expand...

You are ignoring reality here. We have never, not once, had a chat turn that progressed where every aspect of the chat turn had been predefined on the forum. The vast majority of turns do not pass without one or more decisions needing to be made.

How could there be more chat sessions? We reduced chat sessions in order to allow time to discuss and poll. You are talking about greatly increasing the number of discussions and polls and then reducing the time allowed?

the last one, for example, didnt need any spot votes. so either
a) decisions were taken without asking (IMPEACHMENT!)
or
b) all was planned beforehand in the forum

I guess we're in for another round of frivolous investigations then. I know for a fact that not every department and province left instructions for the chat turn.

maybe there were no things to do for them? maybe they were fine like it was?

yes, some governors dont post the polls because the domestic advisor does it for them (more or less) while others do'nt do it because they see the president will do it anyway.

Shaitan-I USED to go to chat sessions, these problems you refer to would always start around turn 6 or 5. The domino war started on the 5th turn of the session, when babylon declared war on us for not appeasing. The foreign officce would, inconjunction with the people, make a plan about how to handle such a situation. If they decide not to give in to demands, and war is declared, the game stops. Turn 5 is when I want to stop having each session. 48 (about) hours later we should have the next 5 turns, and so on.
It takes a lot of work, that is true, and it seems hard to realize currently. However, once it began running smoothly, it would become quite fluent.

Originally posted by disorganizer
We would like to introduce a system which allow total controll of citizenry over any decissions being taken in the game.

Click to expand...

I applaud the thoughts behind this principle, however I think it is completely unworkable from a game perspective.

I am all in favor of keeping the game in the forums, however those forums should be used for significant decision making, not every decision made.

Bill
...in PDX

can you give me some examples of what you don't think should be put into the forums? I've given that thought before, but I never really thought of what we could do like this. And also, when would these decisions be made?

I got another proposal:
we could start with a list of things which we allow to be done by chat-votes. all other decisions MUST lead to a stop of the chat for decission in the forum. The list should be addable with a 2/3 acceptance of citizenry and reducable with a normal majority poll (this will make deleting things from the list easier than adding them, which is on purpose).

Originally posted by Immortal
can you give me some examples of what you don't think should be put into the forums? I've given that thought before, but I never really thought of what we could do like this. And also, when would these decisions be made?

Click to expand...

That is an excellent question. Let me answer with a general view.

If we use the extremes, then in theory, every worker command would be brought to the forums for a vote. As in "any decision". I'm not in favor of that.

On the other hand, trading important techs is something that should be in the forums everytime.

So, the real problem comes from the in betweens....which city to build a wonder, should we build more temples or spearman...that stuff. Some of it is very important (border town to a annoyed civ...culture or defense), and sometimes quite mundane. My solution posted in the end turn chat thread is that the President decides when to end a turn and go back to the people.

Bill

Which will lead to more investigations, as some might see things different than the president

This is *really* starting to get complex and confusing (as though it's not already - sarcasm -). Here's the problem:

- 540 turns in 1 game.

If we play 1 turn per day, that's 540 days ( That's getting close to a year and a half! ) This is only the optimal play time. Discussions will last longer, mainly due to disagreements, and time zone issues. That would push it to every 3 days atleast (make the total playing time 4 1/2 years).

There's another problem that people seem to be forgetting. Real life. I highly doubt people are going to want to read dozens of discussions when they have school, work, college, and other commitments to make. I takes me a good hour or so to fully read a few dozen posts and to understand (or atleast try to) what everyone's saying. (mainly because reading a 40 post thread can get a little boring)

Also add the element of dimplomacy and wars. You might decide to send 15 units to take out a city. Maybe 2 take it, and you're left with 13. That's another discussion. So, they head towards another city (in the meanwhile, MORE discussions are taking place). 5 take the next city, and you're left with 8. Should they split? attack another town? Defend?

So, this 4 1/2 year game can easily increase. Maybe 5 years, maybe 6. Just not feasible.

5) The decisions are taken in forum via polls lasting for a minimum of 2 days. Preceeding the polls a discussion should be held for a minimum of 1 day.

Click to expand...

So, that's 3 days between games, if all runs smoothly. That would mean a total of every 4 days, I take it.

At 540 turns, every 4 days: Almost 6 years, as my last estimate says. Even at the start of the game, someone might say "That location isn't good enough, let's go in that direction".

Let me write a sample "Game Log" of what might happen.

Day 1: New Game - discussion is called for on starting LOC
Day 2: Discussion.
Day 3,4: Voting
Day 5: Turn 2 - Discussion on worker and build queue
Day 6: Discussion.
Day 7,8: Voting
Day 9: Turn 3 - Discussion on scout/science
Day 10: Discussion.
Day 11,12: Voting
Day 13: Turn 4 - We meet another civ. Discussion ensues
Day 14: discussion.
Day 15,16: Voting

See the picture? Half a month, and only 4 turns have been played.