The new, revamped Constitution - Citizen Discussion

For the past month or so we have been developing a new Constitution that fits in with the "Three Book" idea for our rules and regulations. That thread is here.

The "Three Book" concept breaks our rules and regulations down into three different categories. They are the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the Code of Standards.

• The Articles of the Constitution are the framework of the game. These are the game concepts and ideas, plus the individual rules that must be considered permanent for the game to function. These will be very difficult to change.
• The laws in the Code of Law are the enforceable rules of the game. These are the general rules and regulations that must be followed for the game to function efficiently and allow the participants to enjoy themselves in a community environment. These will be easier to change than articles but are still relatively static.
• The standards in the Code of Standards are the mechanics, procedures and minutiae of the game. Following these standards will allow the game to flow smoothly and greatly reduce clutter and confusion. These will be relatively easy to change.

This thread will deal with the new Constitution. Of course, elements from the other books will come up as there is strong integration between all three books but our main concern here is the discussion of the new Constitution and then having an official poll for its acceptance.

There is a link to the most current working copy of the 3 books in the first post of the At-Large Council Thread.

In developing the new Constitution we tried to answer the following questions:

1. Will this constitution define and defend the basic concepts of the game?
2. Will this constitution allow the game to progress at an acceptable rate? i.e. is it restrictive enough to allow efficient game play?
3. Will this constitution allow the players of the game to enjoy themselves? i.e. is it permissive enough to allow participation?

We believe we are there now but there has been low participation during the development of the document. Please voice your approval of the document below or state your objections and suggestions. Remember that we are dealing with the concepts and ideals of our game plus rules that are so important they must be among the most difficult to change.

Without further ado, here's what we've come up with:

The Constitution of Phoenatica
We, the people of Phoenatica, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the Phoenatics.

• All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Phoenatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.
• Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article.
• The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, Judicial Branch and Provincial governments.
• The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated player of the game.
• The Legislative Branch will be formed of a council of leaders, each of whom heads a department that controls one major facet of the country. These departments are Domestic, Foreign, Military, Science, Culture and Trade.
• The Judicial Branch will be formed of two leaders, one who is tasked with upholding the laws (Judge Advocate) and one who is tasked with defending the citizenry (Public Defendant).
• Each province will be governed by a Provincial Governor who is responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of the province.
• All offices will be filled via election each calendar month with terms to begin on the 1st of the month.
• No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor) simultaneously.
• A monthly census of active citizenry will be taken. Half of this census will constitute a quorum.
• A simple majority of citizen approval shall be required to adopt or change a standard. A simple majority of citizen approval plus a simple majority of legislative approval shall be required to adopt or change a law. A 2/3 majority of citizen approval and a 2/3 majority of legislative approval shall be required to adopt or change an article.
• The citizenry, by default, will hold a 25% proxy in the legislature. The citizen proxy plus the Legislative branch constitute the Council. One half of the Council body will constitute a quorum.
• Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.
• Game actions will be played out during a public turn chat.
• The constitution, laws and standards of Phoenatica can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

I would like to remind everyone that our goal is to have a new constitution in place for the beginning of next term.

Let the debates begin!

"the right to demand satisfaction"

Hehe. Does this mean I can start challenging people to duels?

Originally posted by eyrei
"the right to demand satisfaction"

Hehe. Does this mean I can start challenging people to duels?

Click to expand...

Ironically, yes. If we were England about 80 years ago anyway. That was the original intent of this statement in British Law. Duelling has since been outlawed and "satisfaction" in British Law now deals with a citizen's right to criticize the government. In our rules it's more like the latter and deals with a citizen's right to hold the government accountable for following the rules and to force questioning of the rules.

I know I missed some of the original discussion, but I want to clarify the point about the citizens making up 25% of the council. Does that mean that in council votes, each cabinet leader (domestic, military, culture, etc.) gets a vote, and then "the people" get two votes (determined by poll, I assume). That is my interpretation, but I want to clarify it.

Also, you mentioned that 1/2 of the citizens per the last census constitutes a quorum, does that mean until a poll has that many votes, it does not qualify as valid? You also talk about a simple majority, is that a majority of registered citizens, or a majority of those who vote?

For example, we hold a poll to determine the "people's" vote for a council issue. We have 30 registered citizens. If only 12 vote, the poll is invalid regardless. If 16 vote, the poll becomes valid, because we have a quorum.

A. If those 16 voted 9-7 in favor, it passes, and the vote of the people becomes 2 yes votes in the council total.
OR
B. We need 16 yes votes before it passes, meaning it may have a quorum but still not be valid.

(I would say A makes sense to me, but I want to know the intent of the framers of our constitution).

And in terms of determining council votes and quorums, do deputy leaders count, if they are filling in for their leader? i.e. if I am not able to vote (or disappear) for a council vote, can punkbass vote for me, and does he then count toward meeting the quorum. (I would think so, but I am not sure of that. Or this may be covered in the laws).

Originally posted by Justus II
I know I missed some of the original discussion, but I want to clarify the point about the citizens making up 25% of the council. Does that mean that in council votes, each cabinet leader (domestic, military, culture, etc.) gets a vote, and then "the people" get two votes (determined by poll, I assume). That is my interpretation, but I want to clarify it.

Click to expand...

Exactly correct

Also, you mentioned that 1/2 of the citizens per the last census constitutes a quorum, does that mean until a poll has that many votes, it does not qualify as valid? You also talk about a simple majority, is that a majority of registered citizens, or a majority of those who vote?

Click to expand...

Yes, until a poll has attracted enough respondents to meet the minimum attendance requirement (quorum) the results of the poll are not valid. In all cases majority applies to a majority of voters.

For example, we hold a poll to determine the "people's" vote for a council issue. We have 30 registered citizens. If only 12 vote, the poll is invalid regardless. If 16 vote, the poll becomes valid, because we have a quorum.

A. If those 16 voted 9-7 in favor, it passes, and the vote of the people becomes 2 yes votes in the council total.
OR
B. We need 16 yes votes before it passes, meaning it may have a quorum but still not be valid.

(I would say A makes sense to me, but I want to know the intent of the framers of our constitution).

Click to expand...

A is correct.

And in terms of determining council votes and quorums, do deputy leaders count, if they are filling in for their leader? i.e. if I am not able to vote (or disappear) for a council vote, can punkbass vote for me, and does he then count toward meeting the quorum. (I would think so, but I am not sure of that. Or this may be covered in the laws).

Click to expand...

Deputies filling in for Department Leaders may vote in Council Votes. All respondents to a Council vote, whether a leader or a deputy filling in for a leader, count for meeting the quorum.

You should also state that we dont use the registry (census) for determining the number of citizens, but a "census poll" to determine active citizens.

The actual census (how it's taken, etc) will be defined in the Code of Laws. This is the high level concept that we will use one and that it will be reviewed each term.

As far as "the people's" representation in a cabinet vote, what happens if there is not a quorum? I would think that we simply make the poll non-binding on the judicial cabinet members, and allow each to vote his/her conscience.

Originally posted by eyrei
As far as "the people's" representation in a cabinet vote, what happens if there is not a quorum? I would think that we simply make the poll non-binding on the judicial cabinet members, and allow each to vote his/her conscience.

Click to expand...

I don't think we can hit this situation. Citizen approval via valid poll is required for all legislative polls.

Check that - legislative polls are only one type of Council Vote. This situation could definitely occur. I don't like the idea of the proxy being used as a vote of concience though. It's not actually their vote, it's the citizens' vote. I would propose that either they vote according to what they believe the citizens' will to be (and be prepared to justify their decision if necessary) or abstain. Abstain would be the safer option as it eliminates the need for a judgement call.

I'd suggest that in this situation they should post "no mandate" in the cabinet vote, since "abstain" could be misconstrued as the wish of the citizenry.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
I'd suggest that in this situation they should post "no mandate" in the cabinet vote, since "abstain" could be misconstrued as the wish of the citizenry.

Click to expand...

Excellent distinction.

A minor point

Originally posted by Shaitan
The Constitution of Phoenatica

• All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Phoenatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

Click to expand...

Do we really want to say we have free speech?

I mean that while do have the right to speak out on issues, that speech is still moderated in this forum, as it should be.

Just wondering what others think here. Because sure as the sun rises tomorrow, within three months I predict some fine citizen of Phoenatica will say "why did I get edited? I thought I had the right of free speech!"

Which does not include the right to be rude to someone else for example. You can speak out freely, if you dont interfere with the laws and rules.
Its like in real life: In most countries, you have the right of free speech, but if you say "a*s*o*e" to someone, they you get sued.

Article O also reminds us all that we are still subject to forum rules.

donsig, I see your point regarding Article O. I just failed to read it in the correct context.

Bill

Originally posted by donsig
I would like to remind everyone that our goal is to have a new constitution in place for the beginning of next term.

Click to expand...

I am not sure I support this goal. This is not the type of thing I want to see rushed.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough


I am not sure I support this goal. This is not the type of thing I want to see rushed.

Click to expand...

I agree, but end of term should be quite doable.

Here is my proposed revision of articles D and E. I think is it best to stay with the idea that the leaders form a cabinet of ministers whose duty is to carry out the will of the people. As such these leaders are part of the executive branch rather than the legislative branch. It is my feeling that in a democracy game the lawmaking branch should be the citizens themselves. Article D also lists the powers of the leaders. Without refernce to these powers in the constitution there is no basis for making laws about them!

D. The Executive Branch will consist of the President and a council of leaders, each of whom heads a department that controls one major facet of the country. These departments are Domestic, Foreign, Military, Science, Culture and Trade.
The President shall be the designated player of the game. The President is responsible for any decisions not made by other government officials.
The Domestic Leader is responsible for decisions about settler placement, wonder building, setting the science/lux/tax rate and treasury allocations.
The Foreign Leader is responsible for decisions regarding Diplomatic relations such as war, peace, embassies, Right of Passage treaties and Mutual Defense Pacts, Alliances, espionage and other intelligence matters.
The Military Leader is responsible for decisions on military actions, defense, and (if war has been declared) war time actions. Can override Governors on production issues during time of war.
The Science Leader is responsible for setting technology goals. Can veto the exportation of technology to other countries.
The Cultural Leader is responsible for decisions regarding the expansion of our cultural borders via construction of cultural city improvements.
The Trade Leader is responsible for decisions on establishing trade deals. Can veto the exportation of strategic or luxury resources to other countries.

E. The Legislative Branch will consist of the citizens of Phoenatica.

The Judicial Branch will be formed of two leaders, one who is tasked with upholding the laws (Judge Advocate) and one who is tasked with defending the citizenry (Public Defendant).

Click to expand...

I am interested in a little more detail about these positions, how exactly will they work?