Foreign Affairs Proposal for July 10 Turn

Rome, our annoyed Able Partner, is feeling troubled. I suggest renewing the horses gift as a way to keep them content with us.

Iroquois (Favoured Nation, Annoyed). I suggest trading the Incense with them to get 215 gold and 10gpt in return. Then we could gift them 5gpt to push them up from annoyed. Our last gift of 5gpt worked well, until another 5gpt gift to them expired.

Aztecs (Suspect nation, annoyed). We are currently supplying them with Iron and Saltpeter for a combined 21 gpt. They have both connected in their borders and I'm surprised they continue to deal. Should we maintain the exports?

Zulu (Common Neighbour, annoyed). We should watch them carefully. They currently have MPPs with China and India. We should really look at establishing more trade with them. Similar with India (Common Neighbour, cautious). Trade has been slowing down between us.

Keep the exports to the Aztecs as long as possible. Generally this situation comes about because we were supplying them when their own source came online and they started deals for their own. When they eventually lose the other deal they will cancel our deal.

I agree - keep selling them what they don't need!

I'm starting to think that gifting is futile. We give the Iro's great gifts, and they're polite then get annoyed at us in a few turns. Seems like it's turning into a waste of money.

I also suggest we trade Alex Atomic theory as to get his remaining 174 gold, not like he's gonna be able to use it for much

All sounds good. I think all we can really do is just keep giving them gifts. The only way I've ever made an AI really happy was by accepting their offers for a MMP.

No gifts!! What does it gain us?? Nothing!! If they get really angry and declare war, we can take 'em. No point appeasing them at our cost in the short term. They're just gonna attack us later anyway when we refuse to peel them a grape or whatever.

Originally posted by Almightyjosh
No gifts!! What does it gain us?? Nothing!! If they get really angry and declare war, we can take 'em. No point appeasing them at our cost in the short term. They're just gonna attack us later anyway when we refuse to peel them a grape or whatever.

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The purpose of the gifts was to improve our relations with other nations. We are only giving gifts to our Most Favoured Nations and Able Partners to make sure they are friendly towards us. It greatly reduces the chance of them randomly declaring war on us, which I think is a bad thing.

10gpt sounds like a lot sometimes, but really is only a fraction of what they give us for our luxuries and resources. I'd actually prefer to give all the other nations gifts as well, but Foreign Policy limits me to only the nations on the high end of our ranking scale.

It also helps to cover times when we do not trade at all with another nation, which I think is quite dangerous for our democracy.

I agree we could lick any single nation in the world. However, I am concerned about another domino war with MPPs and alliances against us. Not because we could probably hold our own, but that such a war would likely drag on and might damage our wonderful Democracy.

I appreciate the concern. If more citizens agree with AlmightyJosh, please express yourselves and we can decide on a better course of action.

I personally support the policy of gifting. It may seem like an unnecessary outgoing, but if it keeps us in favour with the other civs and allows us to continue in our Democracy then I reckon it's money well spent. I'm willing to bet that the commerce benefits of democracy probably more than justify it, and if you don't like the word "appeasement" just think of it as overseas aid to our less advanced neighbours

Pah!! They'll just spend it on troops to assail us with later. Why make life hader for ourselves!! Why do we need to appease them anyway (Eklektikos' witty euphamisms aside), we're better then they are, grrrr.

The Domestic Dept. supports your proposal. All trade and gifting seems justified. One question though...I found the iron of the Aztecs on my maps, but I didn't see the saltpeter. Is it under a city?

Originally posted by Falcon02
I'm starting to think that gifting is futile. We give the Iro's great gifts, and they're polite then get annoyed at us in a few turns. Seems like it's turning into a waste of money.

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I am also leaning in this direction, particularly with the Iroquois. Hiawatha has become spoiled, and I suggest we begin cutting his "allowance". I also think we should plant a spy in the Iroquois capital while we still have gpt gifts going there. Those gifts will lessen the chance of a declaration of war. Even if they do declare war, it will only be the Iroquois that suffer.

Nevr mind. I just found the Saltpeter under the city of Tlatelolco.

I have to disagree with the practice of giving money. Other than strategic resources, money is the one thing that can help the AI most. We should be giving them the more "useless" things, like horses, iron, and saltpeter.

Originally posted by Octavian X
I have to disagree with the practice of giving money. Other than strategic resources, money is the one thing that can help the AI most. We should be giving them the more "useless" things, like horses, iron, and saltpeter.

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A great idea. We have been giving horses away to Rome to keep them pleased while they are not very useful at this point. "Useless" resources are our first gift. Old and useless techs are a second. Rome is still at Steam Power, for example, and there may be a tech or 2 we could part with, if we wish.

Gold is another matter, and I have frankly expected more to object to using it as a gift. I have talked to some players who swear by large amounts of gold as gifts and some who prefer to not touch the gift button. I have tried to strike a balance with these while maintaining a sense of role-playing with friendly nations, in an effort to best create allies and rivals.

Personally, I have felt that a small proportional amount of gold really doesn't hurt us in terms of giving up much. It does buy better relations with the other nation - and maybe it even gets paid back in friendly trading. If 5-10gpt keeps us out of war for the whole game, I think it is worth it.

Or you can flip the thinking around, like you did. What are they doing with the 5gpt or whatever that we give them? A good question. Often, we get it back in trade. Perhaps it buys them an upgrade or a rushed building. Perhaps they plant a spy somewhere. We know they use money.

I've posted a poll regarding the Iroquois portion and suitable gifting procedure here:
Gifts for the Iroquois

Being new to Phoenatica, I may be mistaken, but isn't this nation to be one of peace? Therefore, shouldn't we make every attempt at peace? I am in agreement with chiefpaco that the few gpt we gift to the Iroquiois isn't going to set us back that much but well provide a more lasting peace.

We have the military might to destroy them, so what? The armed forces of Phoenatica are suppost to serve a defensive purpose! The Iroquiois have not demanded anything of us, so us presenting us a gift to them in the name of peace, in my opinion, does not show weakness nor does it make us seem like we're caving to the Iroquois. Rather, our gift shows our strength!

I must urge those in power in this great nation of ours to stick to way of peace we cherish.

I am not opposed to giving gifts, but when the recipient begins to expect them, they are almost counterproductive because we must give them more and more to make them happy. The Iroquois are a perfect example of this. There is no reason for us to give Hiawatha gifts that do nothing but keep him from becoming violent in his jealously of the prosperity of our nation. It is absurd that we give him a gift, and he feigns gratitude for a few turns, but before the gpt gift has even expire, he once again becomes irritated and expects another one to make him happy. I suggest we stop gifts to the Iroquois completely for 20 turns to break Hiawatha of his 'addiction' to Phoenatican gold.

put more concisely, Hiawatha is just a greedy bugger

I think he becomes unhappy at a certain level of committment from us. Yes, he is happy for a short while and then unhappy with us. I think it has more to do with old gifts running out though. Because of the odd # turns played all the time, we have often have gifts running out mid-turn, where FA can not assess the situation easily. At this time, I think he turns on us.

That is why I'm proposing a constant level of gifting that I hope to better maintain. Rather than asking for small bits every turn.

And thanks, Myartar. New input is often the best because you may have the freshest view of the situation. We are headed towards a Space Ship or maybe Cultural victory. The gold definitely won't hurt us and maybe it holds them off long enough for us to complete our goals.

Originally posted by chiefpaco
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That is why I'm proposing a constant level of gifting that I hope to better maintain. Rather than asking for small bits every turn.

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Then, I propose we allow all gifts to run out, and then grant him one gift that will be renewed every twenty turns.