Why are the Turks Scientific?

Firaxis have done it again apparently.
According to the Infocenter, PTW will give the Turks the traits "Industrious" and "scientific". This is absurd. Is it mistake? Why do they think the Turks were more scientific than the English, French, Scandinavians, Romans and Arabs. The Ottomans were the one European civ which made virtually no contributions to science. The English had Newton, Faraday, Boyle and Darwin. Of the 2 Moslem civs, the Arabs were more scientific.
Could someone please justy Firaxis?

yeah, make'm expansionists or militarists. they were warring all the time and built quite an empire at one point.

if you don't like their characteristics then you can change em in the editor when i comes out

I ha no idea why they would be scientific except they where one of the first to use cannons as siege weapons and continued to use artillery effectively ever since, I guess the civilopedia will at least attempt to explain why

Also the there won't be any Jannisarries with the Turks. I guess Firaxis doesn't want to make a 2-5-1 unit or another unit that is the same as musketeers (3-4-1).

Maybe because they got all the techs that the European and Oriental civs got because the main trade route went right through turkey.

Becuase they needed to balance the game and too many civs had the same ones, so they just stuck random ones on it.

Maybe because during the Dark Ages in Europe, they preserved all the knowledge we have today. Things like the works of Homer, Socrates, and a lot of medicinal knowledge were preserved by them.

Maybe because during the Dark Ages in Europe, they preserved all the knowledge we have today. Things like the works of Homer, Socrates, and a lot of medicinal knowledge were preserved by them.

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That was the Arabs, not the Turks.

calgacus-Could someone please justify Firaxis?

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During the Ottoman Empire the Turks were very adaptive to new Sciences, when they took over Arabia, they adopted the use of pigeon posts. Under the Assyrian Rule many legal documents (for a post mailing network) were found in the city of Kultepe. And have you forgotten about the Catal Huyuk Civilization!?!? Or the Greek Colony of Peragum? Which piped up and through 2 valleys, and then up again to reach the city? or how about the 'first' coins as we know them today? they were found in Lydia c. 650bc. made of Electrum, and had a lion 'seal' on them. they were also narked with punches showing thier weight and purity. And according to Greek Legend, Magnetism was discovered by a shepherd in the mountains 'to the East'. and in western Turkey. when the shepherds nails (in his sandals) got stuck to a lodestone. And in the siege of Constantinople, they used huge guns that battered at the walls. The largest had a bore 35inches and fired a ball of 600lbs Some shots went over one and a half miles!!! and supposedly "cut a (venetian) ship in half" they supposedly needed 1.000 men and 70 oxen to move them. They were second only to the Chinese as the first to use artillery. But this is impressive none the less, as, at this time, every Civilization was second to the Chinese. In Catal Hüyük, in women’s tombs, their were found highly polished mirrors made of Volcanic glass, or obsidian. Which is very hard to work with. The mirrors were scratch free and it reportedly astonished the British Archeologists in the 60's. Even the ancient city of Troy is in Turkey. And if it counts for anything, the Turks had Coffee long before the western world. which in reality, is very advanced, as it can be used as a mental stimulant in medical surgery.

calgacus-The English had Newton, Faraday, Boyle and Darwin.

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Ha! The Europeans were hit with Grenades during the Crusades! And even then Europeans couldn’t replicate what existed in the Anatolia. The English had a war with the Chinese in the 1840's. And Thought that the Chinese had copied steam powered paddle boats from the English, but in reality, the Chinese had paddle boats for over a thousand years. which means in 840 a.d. they were using them. And anyone who thinks im being biased, or from Turkey, you couldnt be more wrong, as my Heritage is Greek\Irish\British.

Originally posted by PCHighway

During the Ottoman Empire the Turks were very adaptive to new Sciences, when they took over Arabia, they adopted the use of pigeon posts. Under the Assyrian Rule many legal documents (for a post mailing network) were found in the city of Kultepe. And have you forgotten about the Catal Huyuk Civilization!?!? Or the Greek Colony of Peragum? Which piped up and through 2 valleys, and then up again to reach the city? or how about the 'first' coins as we know them today? they were found in Lydia c. 650bc. made of Electrum, and had a lion 'seal' on them. they were also narked with punches showing thier weight and purity. And according to Greek Legend, Magnetism was discovered by a shepherd in the mountains 'to the East'. and in western Turkey. when the shepherds nails (in his sandals) got stuck to a lodestone. And in the siege of Constantinople, they used huge guns that battered at the walls. The largest had a bore 35inches and fired a ball of 600lbs Some shots went over one and a half miles!!! and supposedly "cut a (venetian) ship in half" they supposedly needed 1.000 men and 70 oxen to move them. They were second only to the Chinese as the first to use artillery. But this is impressive none the less, as, at this time, every Civilization was second to the Chinese. In Catal Hüyük, in women’s tombs, their were found highly polished mirrors made of Volcanic glass, or obsidian. Which is very hard to work with. The mirrors were scratch free and it reportedly astonished the British Archeologists in the 60's. Even the ancient city of Troy is in Turkey. And if it counts for anything, the Turks had Coffee long before the western world. which in reality, is very advanced, as it can be used as a mental stimulant in medical surgery. Ha! The Europeans were hit with Grenades during the Crusades! And even then they couldn’t replicate what existed in the Anatolia. The English in the war with the Chinese in the 1840's. Thought that they had copied steam powered paddle boats from them, but in reality, they had paddle boats for over a thousand years. which means in th 1600's they were using them. And anyone who thinks im being biased, or from Turkey, you couldnt be more wrong, as my Heritage is Greek\English.

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1. Neither the people of Catal Huyuk, the Trojans, the Lydians, the people of Pergamum or the ancient Magnesians were Turkish, and they certainly weren't Ottoman. If you had wanted to go down those widely anachronistic lines, you might have mentioned the Ionian Greek who, as far as we know, were the first scientific people (in the sense of seeking explanations for all of nature without reference to the supernatural).

2. The fact that the Ottomans had a few hundred years of success exploiting the scientific achievements of other civs is dwarved magnificently by their long history of scientific backwardness. They were entirely dependent on the scientific achievements of the civs around them. The science of the east gave them a temporary advantage over eastern europe, then the science of the west gave them enough to hald control of the Arabs until the western Europeans themselves intervened. The Ottomans were virtually 100% passive in this process. Western Europe had lots of natural disadvantages and the Ottomans had the opposite, yet how could W.Europe overtake the Ottoman Empire within a few hundred years of the Empire's existence if the Ottomans were scientific.

3. The Ottomans were a mostly a modern civ which was situated in the heartland of the the Ancient world's achievement areas, yet even nations which lay in the Ancient world's Barbaria like Denmark, Poland, Hungary and Scotland did more for science than they did.

So the Turks were not scientific, unless there is something very important of which I am ignorant.

First off, I would like to point out that my point is simply to defend Firaxis no offence meant.

1.) They Were from that area, The Turks themselves were people who were fleeing from the Mongol’s. They took over the area of what is now present day turkey, and from then on lived there, the native peoples became Turks, and the Turks became more native. Im guessing about 1% of the people there are part, (only part) of that horde that ran from the Mongol’s. It would be like saying that the Carthaginians weren’t Carthaginians at all, but Phoenicians. So when The Ottoman Empire formed, the culture of the natives, became theirs. And more to the point, the technology also became there’s. After all they are the same people, just with a new name.

2.) If you argue this, then I argue western Europe got most of its Medieval Science from Rome, and Greece. all they had to do was 'rediscover' them. Yes, of course there is a certain point where the rediscovering stops, but that would be like debating about why Rome didn’t invent the telegraph. Your basically saying that the Ottomans got the best of both worlds, so to speak. Thats true, But they also got the worst of both worlds. Why didn’t The Byzantine Empire become as advanced as the Romans, compared to the Germanic Civ’s? They had the onslaught of the east to deal with, So did the Ottomans. But none the less, they were scientific.

3.) You don’t mention the guns I told you about. No-where in Scotland were they carrying 19 ton guns around;
http://www.historicist.com/articles/constantinople.htm

4.) And now, The janissary. Here is where the Ottoman technology begins. The janissaries carried handguns, the first army to do so.(see above link) Indeed the entirety of Gunpowder infantry was revolutionized by The Turks army. Double barrel Muskets. When in Egypt, Napoleon himself said;
“Europe is but a mole-hill - all the great reputations have come from Asia”.

5.)The Turks were scientific, especially by Firaxis’s terms where Monotheism is a tech.

Originally posted by calgacus
Firaxis have done it again apparently.
According to the Infocenter, PTW will give the Turks the traits "Industrious" and "scientific". This is absurd. Is it mistake? Why do they think the Turks were more scientific than the English, French, Scandinavians, Romans and Arabs. The Ottomans were the one European civ which made virtually no contributions to science. The English had Newton, Faraday, Boyle and Darwin. Of the 2 Moslem civs, the Arabs were more scientific.
Could someone please justy Firaxis?

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But you are incorrect my man, back in the middle ages 1100's, 1200's the ottoman empire had the best scientists in the world.

Sorry for the double post but I wanted this to be separate from the rest. I completely agree Catal Huyuk is not Ottoman. But would you say that Alexander the Great's men, from Macedon, conquered Persia? No, it was what is now known as Greece that conquered it. So after the ottomans conquered Anatolia. The soldier's came from the same regions of the People from Catal Huyuk. Also the Greek influence was every where. So Lybia was heavily influenced. But all the same its not like the Greeks went over and made the Lighthouse of Alexandria. The Natives meaning Egyptians did. So its safe to say, the Ottomans, and the 3.000 troops that came from Turkmenistan, conquered Asia minor.

Well, AFAIK, altough in differents stages of history there were advanced civilizations in the Anatolian peninsula (greeks, romans, arabs), the groups that eventually formed Turkey in the middle ages (ottomans and selyucid), were backward tribes from central asia, related to tartars and mongols, which, once stablished in modern day Turkey didn't make great contribution to science (except for the advances in the use of artillery).

So, I'd rather put the Turks as militaristic and industrious.

(And, I don't agree either with the celts being militaristic and religious)

The Turks were not fleeing from the Mongols. Most of them joined them, as they were similar people, especially the nomadic Turks. Some conquered the Mongols, (Timur) and others were already in Anatolia. The Turks in Anatolia didn't look much like the the Turks in Central Asia. They were more mixed with the local Grecian and Arab people.

At their height they were far more advanced. Yeah they went backwards later but so do all civs at their end. The Brits weren't very expansionist after WW2 but they still had alot of their empire left.

The Ottomans could have been militaristic/ expansionist, or really any of the traits, but these two were picked for balancing purposes.

But you are incorrect my man, back in the middle ages 1100's, 1200's the ottoman empire had the best scientists in the world.

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The Ottomans came to power in the 1300's and reached their height in the 1500's. The Seljuk Turks, their predescors were ruling earlier.

So its safe to say, the Ottomans, and the 3.000 troops that came from Turkmenistan, conquered Asia minor.

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BUt the Ottomans were already in the Anatolia. Osman, Hourse of Osman was in Anatolia and they had been there for a while. If you look at a historical map from 1000 to 1500 you'll see what was going on the ME during that time period.

Ok, here's a summary. Brief and doesn't cover most things. Its from the top of my head. Whatver:

Around 800 AD, we have Abbasid Caliphate ruling Arabian Peninsula, Syria, Iraq, Persia, Afghanistan, Egypt and a bit more of northern Africa and into modern day Uzbekistan/ Turmekistan. They are Arabs. There, that is the Arab empire everybody ask's about. A very large one, I think it was larger than the Roman empire. They are centered in Baghdad. The Turks are happily living in modern day Khazikistan and around the Caspian sea.

1000 AD: The Abbasi's collapse. Persia returns to its native dynasties, Egypt, Syria become independent also. Abbasids are finished off by the Persians. The Fatamid dynasty takes control of Egypt. The Ghuzz Turks in modern day Afghanistan and Turmekistan are convereted to Islam. The Seljuk Turks are taken as slave soldiers to defend Baghdad from the Persians. They win, and then rebel agaisnt the Abbasids, finally finishing them off. Then they go and conquer Persia, Iraq, Palestine, and into Anatolia but are defeated at Constantinople. Crusaders arrive later and conquer back Palestine and bits of Anatolia. The Turks also destroy the Fatamid dynasty in Egypt. But the Egyptain governor, a kurd, Saladin, takes over Egypt and makes it the Ayyubid dynasty. Later the Mamlukes, also Turks, conquer Egypt and end the short lived Ayyubid dynasty. The Seljuks split into several kingdoms. The Rums in anatolia and the Great Seljuk Sultanate in Persia and Central Asia.

Then our friend Chingis/ Genghis Khan shows up destroys all the empires in the area and most of the cities along with it. The Rums recover though and aren't too affected by the Mongol conquest.

1200's. The Ilk Khanate rules over Persia and Turmekistan. The Seljuk Rum dynasty is cornered between Byzatine and Ilk Khanate. The Mamlukes take control of Egypt. The Chagtai have central Asia, and the Golden Horde is in Russia.

1400's. Timur takes control of the Chagtai's. They are mix of Mongols and Turks, mostly Turks. He leads them and conquers Persia, Iraq, northern India, and central Asia. At the same time the Ottomans come to power in Anatolia and cross into the Balkans and conquer there and take all of Anatolia except Constantinople. They are sieging the city, when Timur starts conquering which results in a war between Timur and the Ottomans, which Timur wins. But the Ottomans are only hindered a bit and continue expanding. Timur's empire collapses, and returns to the little Turkish states.

At this time, there is really no major power in the world. Europeans are still relatively backwards, and made up of small states and kingdoms other than the Holy Roman empire. Ottomans are unrivaled. The Mamlukes are a threat but then destroyed and conquered. The Safavids are also somewhat destroyed and weakened.

The Ottomans were most likely a noble family (House of Osman) from the Seljuk Rum's times, and managed to survive the Mongol onslaught.

For a few centuries the Ottomans were unrivaled.

Also a side note: Its interesting that around Timur's time and a bit later, most of Asia was ruled by Turkish/Mongoloid peoples. Central Asia, Mongolia, China, Persia, Egypt, India (not the Mughals, there was a few other Delhi sultanates, mostly destroyed by Timur) and Anatolia.

My summary is not totally correct but it is mostly. I did a report on the Seljuks a few years ago, and although now I can't rememeber most of their names, there was alot going on then.

Originally posted by PCHighway
First off, I would like to point out that my point is simply to defend Firaxis no offence meant.

1.) They Were from that area, The Turks themselves were people who were fleeing from the Mongol’s. They took over the area of what is now present day turkey, and from then on lived there, the native peoples became Turks, and the Turks became more native. Im guessing about 1% of the people there are part, (only part) of that horde that ran from the Mongol’s. It would be like saying that the Carthaginians weren’t Carthaginians at all, but Phoenicians. So when The Ottoman Empire formed, the culture of the natives, became theirs. And more to the point, the technology also became there’s. After all they are the same people, just with a new name.

3.) You don’t mention the guns I told you about. No-where in Scotland were they carrying 19 ton guns around;
http://www.historicist.com/articles/constantinople.htm

4.) And now, The janissary. Here is where the Ottoman technology begins. The janissaries carried handguns, the first army to do so.(see above link) Indeed the entirety of Gunpowder infantry was revolutionized by The Turks army. Double barrel Muskets. When in Egypt, Napoleon himself said;
“Europe is but a mole-hill - all the great reputations have come from Asia”.

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1. But the are a different CIV, this is important. You're taking the Ottoman Empire as an eternal geographical concept; it was a civilization more foriegn to the classical Greeks and Lydians than to the people of the Russian desert.
It's not like saying that. You're using a logical fallacy. The Cartharginians can be Carthaginian as well as Phoenician. The people of the US are American and they are part of the larger nameless English-speaking culture, but that doesn't mean that they are Native Americans. I don't want to sound arrogant PCHighway, but that was a really bad example.

3. I would say that kind of thin is industrious, not scientific. Philosophers are scientific, masons and wrights are industrious.

4. Napoleon was not correct, but even so, he does not speak of the Turks.

You can't just say the Turks are scientific because of their weaponry, scientific necessitates abstract creation and theoretical contributions to progress. What did the Turks do in this sense? I think the Turks should be Industrious and Militaristic instead of industrious and scientific. Industrious covers all the points you made, I simply can't see the justification for going further and calling them scientific.

That post was one of the better ones i've seen in a while. But you say that most Turks joined the Mongol’s? Are you saying the Turkic people from what is now Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Northern India and Turkmenistan. I meant the Turks who would eventually form the Ottoman empire. Admittedly I interpreted it wrong, as one of my sources just said 'stronger Neighbors ' right next to 'climate changes'. However Documentation of the semi-legendary accounts, Estugrul, khan of the Kayi tribe of the Oguz Turks, fled from Persia in the mid-thirteenth century to escape the Mongol hordes.

Originally posted by sabo10


But you are incorrect my man, back in the middle ages 1100's, 1200's the ottoman empire had the best scientists in the world.

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Get your facts straight, my man!

Anyway, I only said that they "made virtually no contributions to science", so you have to tell me what these anachronistic scientists did .

1.) Never! Saying the Ottomans and the Turks (from Turkey), is denying that the Turks, (once again from the modern day country of Turkey) had NO say in the events leading to the true Ottoman Empire. The Carthaginian debate holds. Granted, it sounds absurd to me too. Almost as absurd as you saying that the Ottomans and present day Turkey are 2 separate Civs. In the u.s. Native Americans were annihilated, a form of genocide. You would do better to say The word Americans includes Mexicans. As many, and I mean many, people from the u.s. are Latin American. I used the extreme analogy of Phoenician as it seems you are using the extreme Turkic\Ottoman example.

3.) And I would call it Militaristic. But a big part of war is equipment, The Vietnamese won the war vrs. the U.S. Yet they lost more than 1.000.000 people, while we lost 60.000, Manpower counts for a lot. But technology counts for an equal amount. So we could spend all day arguing about which we would call it, obviously, because the Turks had both.

4.) Your right Napoleon was a moron we agree on one thing, or perhaps two. . .

Im willing to give up the argument and agree they should not be scientific. Also this might change. The Chinese, in my version of the game are not scientific. Can you think of a civ more worthy? However they do have the 'build science often' flagged in the editor. In fact, in my copy of the Civ iii manual on p.17, China is listed as industrious scientific. Which shows Firaxis might change the civ abilities for reasons other than historic. And that would satisfy both are arguments, I am sure.

Back to Napoleon, you are right. Looking back at your mention of Faraday, I thought of James C. Maxwell, who was one of the main reasons of changing my decision.