Worst Battle System Ever!!

hi guys,

i want to say that i thought i could get back into civ3 again, but i cannot.

How am i supposed to buy "PTW" with such a disgrace to it's genre.

here is what happened that was a complete turn off from civ 3 to me.

Map size, small, enemys 4, i was america

i started the game and quickly expanded to 5 cities. When China kept trespassing on my turf and complained repeadily about my units passing into their turn i declared war on them, especially since they did not want a right of passage and easily took one of their weakest cities. The next city was no walk in the park, EVEN THOUGH I WAS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED AND USING STRATEGY!!

i had pikemen, swordmen, archers, and catapults. My damn catapults kept missing every freakin time. How does a catapult miss it's target %99 of the time?????On top of that the cpu had weak units that were not even veteran or elites yet they were slaughtereing 2-3 of my units at a time. my army had one or two of every unit avaialble and i switch units to counter whatever unit china had guarding it's city.

There were times where i attacked with 3 catapults before using my army to destroy computer army and all catapults would miss COMPLETELY , the computer's 1 unit would slaugher most of my units causing me to fortify until reinforcement arrive. Then the corny aztecs declared war on me for a petty 30 Gold. On top of that, it was nearly impossible to persuade the Iroquis to ally with me, EVEN though have been trading with them since the beginning of the game.

I mean one time i offered military allinace vs china for like 290 gold and he said 'sweeten the deal and we will talk" i moved it to like 330 then he said it is not acceptable.

Another thing that pisses me off is when you are moving a catapult across the map and the computer like miraculously makes like a huge 5 space jump to take MY catapult. I was like "WTH"!!

bottom line the computer ai is corny and it is NO FUN!!

Maybe civ 4 will be better

later,

I dislike the combat as well. I hope it is fixed in the next civ.

hi,

thanks for responding

i want to make clear, don't mean any disrespect to civ3 fans or the creators of civ3 but there is ALOT ALOT of room for improvement on the combat system.

THAT IS ALL THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE DONE!!

wow, i mean if they could tweek the battle system civ3 would be perfect.

I clearly had a better army than the computer, and was reeling in reinforcements like a madman, yet i was getting slaughtered by weaker units haha


I am going to post a topic on suggestions for improved combat system on civ4, feel free to check it out. also feel free to continue posting on this topic too

later,

My suggestion is wage war with veteran Knight, they rock i tell you, they are fast ( move 2 ) , have good defense ( 3) pretty good attack ( 4) and they can retreat from battle if redline.

With about 8 productive city ( size 12 ) you can produce 1 kight per city per 4-6 turn. Stack about 12 and go war, keep the front line with supply of fresh units.

With this strategy i am able to wash my continent from 3 A.I. on regent level.

You can even produce a few horsman in old age and upgarde them to knight ( cost 80 gold per horseman).

I forgot to said, always move your knight so they end turn on a mountain or hill or forest, dont let them on grassland or plain. This for defense bonus, especialy if a.i. got longbowman.

wow thanks man

i will try it hehe



as far as PTW is concerned, i MAY buy it.

can anyone tell me if it is any good?

Strength in numbers is a very important factor.

Attacking is much more difficult than defending.

Bombardment is often useless unless you mod the values.

A good strategy I used in my last war was to hit the enemy Spearman with a weak Archer (which is killed) first to soften it up, then hit it with a stronger veteran Legion unit. It failed me once out of 10 times trying it.

that is good, especially vs pikemen.

wargasm, this topic has has been discussed to death in these forums already (unfortunately search isn't working).

Learn the rules of the combat system, before complaining too much. There are still some things I disagree with (bombardment is weaker than I'd make it, fighters can't kill ships, etc.), but the baiscs are workable. In general, (this may seem a repetition of Trip's comments but they bear repeating) send more troops that you think you need. I try to make attacks with about three times the strength that I figure the fair fight odds are (there are tools to help compute this). Very rarely do I lose with this. Learn the various modifiers to defense. The defender can be much stronger than the number that is on the unit. Bombarding a city with units before artillery isn't going to do much, although they can be used in the open and in defense just fine.

If you still don't like the default change it in the editor, that's what it's there for.

okay

wargasm:
1) force concentration is very important. if u expect the AI has 2 spearmen in a city, bring along 7-8 horsemen. if u don't think u can take a city in the next turn, wait for re-inforcements till u are fairly comfortable u can take the city. one sure way of losing units is to keep throwing offensive units at a city turn after turn. injured units heal and they heal completely in a city with barracks.
ancient warfare is a fine art.
2) diplomacy. if u have what they need give in to their demands and punish them later. it's a matter of priorities really. do u want to go to war over 30 gold? the AI is made to be reckless and therefore will - u shouldn't.
3) foreign troops on ur soil is rarely a good enough reason to go to war unless they are blocking a chokepoint, suspiciously looking like they are going to attack u, or u were looking for a pretext to go to war as part of a larger scheme to bring order into the world.
3) as the guy said, bombardment is damn near useless b4 u get artillery. oh..and dont leave ur catapults in the open, they have no defense value.

thanks buddy

i will play a couple of games to try these tips out

thanks again guys

I don't know about anyone else here but i never make catapults since they have never worked for me. IMHO i believe you are better off with swordsmen, knights and pikeman.

On top of the great advice from wohmongarinf00l and warpstorm :
the main issue is to FORGET THE CATAPULTS, that's a typical "Civ2 to Civ3" trait, it needs some getting used to .
In Civ2 catapults were just essential to take cities, in Civ3 they're plainly useless. Concentrate production on knights.
Also (try to) always have a good defensive unit (pikeman or musketman) on a stack of knights in ennemy territory.

OK, I agree that catapults are poor, but building some do have one thing going for it: They upgrade to Cannon, which in turn upgrade to Artillery. IF you have Leo's, this can mean the very rapid production of a very effective arm of your military, via upgrade. Even without Leo's, the ability to build them instantly via upgrade can be useful (depending on your play style). Cats built for this purpose can be useful in defense in the meantime, and cannon more so. Offensively, catapults don't funciton too well, it is true.

wargasm, as many have said, try to get an idea of your strength needed before an attack, to overpower the defender ... then build 3 times that many. Be sure to always have a good defender stacked with an effective attacker, because often a good offensive unit has a pretty low defense. Soften up a tough spot with fast movers (horse/chariots/Jags/Knights etc) who retreat rather then die, then attack with your footsloggers. A fast unit dedicated to a stack or position of importance means that the ai can't do that to you (until they kill it, of course). Remember that waves of attackers that are weak CAN kill a strong unit .... they just need to get a hit point scored each as they die, and after a couple of them, your unit goes down ... thats why numbers are so important.

God is on the side with the most, and biggest, battalions.

As has also been said ... hit points are of much greater value then a (or even two) points of defense or attack strength.


All that aside, I do agree that there are some improvements they could make in the combat system. ?Return, perhaps in a modified form, of Civ2's Firepower system? Here is not the place to begin that debate, though. I definitely won't go into the Naval combat issues, there are so many that that is definitely in need or a (more than one) Thread of its own. Which are out there. Use "search"!

Anyway, stick in there, try some of these things out, and don't give up on the game yet!

tip for newbies: double HP and bombard values for a few games (that way you get results closer to the predicted ones), then, once you know how to win, set the HP down again.

I thought there was a restricion on random number generator bashing...
And catapults just suck. That's it.
Try the combat calculator.

Some thoughts on Catapults - not worth it most of the time but if you have lots (20+) they can be useful against the romans (a fortified hoplite eats horsemen for breakfast) and then only use them on towns 6 or smaller. 7 or bigger get extra defense bonus.
If the small town has walls bring more catapults.

In my current game, large map, easy level, everything random, I'm Persia. Horsemen and immortals have wiped out Babylon and China, Romans are next and I'm building 50+ catapults. They will come in useful in 25 turns when I can upgrade to cannon.

BTW dumbest civ move I've made so far....1st time using Persia, I saw this unit called Immortal and thought that it was. Really pissed off when it died. Guess I've been playing too many shoot-'em-up games with the immortal cheat on

In the Ancient Age, against towns on level ground, you need a minimum of 3-1 odds. If my combat stack is slow-moving, such as Sword and Spear, I'll throw a couple of Catapults in. They work occasionally.

If you have a mobile attack force, such as Horsemen, be sure to build Spearmen to bring up the rear to fortify your captured towns. A couple of Catapults are useful for defense, if your enemy is counterattacking.

If you are attacking a fortified position, such as City Walls on a Hill, then you may need large numbers. Be prepared for a long siege or a bloody result, or both. Catapults work very slowly, so you may want to start the siege at the beginning of the campaign. Position a couple of Spearmen and a stack of Catapults next to the City Walls, and start your bombardment.
After having captured the rest of your enemy's towns, let your troops rest, and gather your strength for the final assault.

Always attack with your full strength. Never let the target town survive the assault. They will heal, be promoted, and receive reinforcements.

Avoid attacking with damaged units. Save your Elites for sure victories in order to increase your chances of a Great Leader.

It's true. The combat system could use some peaking and tweaking, but i agree with most of the players above - it's still performs well enough to be a lot of fun!

I too usually have an attack force basiclly about 3x what I'm facing in defense. Much more if I'm dealing with specific terrian defense bonuses. It's also important to keep in mind that some lone spearman with a defense of 2 is going to have fortification bonuses as well as city size and/or wall bonuses. This makes him a lot stronger than he appears!

So how's your game going now wargasm? After all these posts, and perhaps a bit more civ-war under your belt - are you gaining a better appreciation for Civ's combat?