Pikes or Muskets?

Falcon02 · Dec 30, 2002

The last turn chat was ended because a discussion arose as to whether or not to immediately retask our production from pikes to muskets.

The advantage with keeping with pikes now is being able to produce more units in less time, which can later be used as police and at least some upgraded.

The advantage with muskets it's better defensive (equal to the offensive ability of most offensive units right now) and less need to upgrade.

Currently, I'm undecided on this topic, but I see logic with both sides.

Octavian X · Dec 30, 2002

As revealed in the TC, this last turn our supply of saltpeter was exhausted. According to initial estimates, a reconnection would take 5 turns.

The real question is how much effort should we place into reconnected the saltpeter? Soon, for continued musket productions, or later, in time for cavalry?

Grandmaster · Dec 30, 2002

Can we split haf-and-half? Leave some (most?) of the cities producing pikes, and switch a few to muskets? That way we get the units quickly, but soon thereafter also get the superior defense, plus we don't have to upgrade as much?

I would speak with more sureness if I had checked the save, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

Eklektikos · Dec 30, 2002

We cannot produce both pikes and muskets at the same time without heavily mutilating our road network and inducing crippling corruption.

Grandmaster · Dec 30, 2002

OK, my bad for not checking the save.... what I thought General Falcon was implying was that their were cities already building Pikemen, which wouldn't be switched to Muskets until told to do so, in which case even if we had Salt connected to all cities we'd be able to finish out a round of Pikes before starting on Muskets. Guess I just misunderstood is all.

Cheetah · Dec 30, 2002

You are partly right Grandmaster. Currently many cities produce Pikemen and, since we don't have any salpeter, no cities are producing Musketmen.

Acctualy I want to change all Pikemen in production to Musketmen ASAP, thus connecting our second salpeter-resource with road ASAP.

However, Grandmaster's idea about splitting half-and-half is very interesting. We could let all inland cities currently producing Pikemen continue with it, and let all border-cities switch to Musketmen.

Anyway, we need to get Musketmen along our borders as soon as possible.

Falcon02 · Dec 30, 2002

I agree we need to work on musket production now begaining the transition for our main defense, but I think some Pikes would also be good like Toyama needs a pike, but it's not close enough to anyone to need a musket just now.

Cheetah · Dec 30, 2002

We have a worker close to Striders Heaven that can abort its current work and get to the tile with salpeter in 3 turns. Then it will take around 6-8 turns as I understands it to build a road there.

Bill_in_PDX · Dec 30, 2002

In the big picture, to me muskets are not critical until we determine where our next conquest will occur.

The defenders on the opposite side of our nation should be muskets for improved defense, the defenders on the offensive side should not need upgrading, as our Knights/Calvary will provide suitable resistance to any enemy offensive.

Our nation is too big now to rapidly redeploy defenders, and will be until steam power. Therefore, we need strong defenders on our rear lines.

Octavian X · Dec 31, 2002

We really should start producing musketmen in cities with barracks. That way, those veterans can be upgraded to rifles when the time comes. Old regulars could then me sent away from the fronts.

Falcon02 · Dec 31, 2002

I agree, barracks cities should get priority with muskets.

Cyc · Dec 31, 2002

Me too. I say don't make anymore Pikes. I also think a group of well placed Muskets on our sensitive borders is a wise idea, so upgrades are a good idea. The first thing I'd like to see though is the two Spearmen in Kuhkaff upgraded to Pikes. We could retire the spears to be used only in some religious dance or something. j/k. Anyway, a gradual upgrade process with the elimination of Pike production is my vote.

We might want to start saving lots of gold, too.

Eklektikos · Dec 31, 2002

My opinion is that we should continue producing pikes until this is no longer an option. This is due to the fact that pikemen deliver 3/4 of the strength for 1/2 the cost in shields. To put this in perspective, we would be able to garrison a city with 3 pikemen for the cost of 1 1/2 muskets while still having more hp defending that city than 2 whole musketmen would have given us. Add in the 4th pikeman to bring us up to the cost of those two whole musketmen and we would have a significantly more powerful garrison than we could afford to provide using the latter units.
Yes, this will cost us more in terms of gpt to support; but this cost is surely worth not having to pay upgrade costs until we have had the opportunity to strengthen our economy with banks (for which we recently acquired the prerequisite technology) and there is a good reason for connecting saltpeter - Cavalry.

donsig · Dec 31, 2002

What about the long term? Are we going to keep the pikes forever or eventually upgrade them to rifles, etc.? If we are to upgrade them eventually the upgrade cost remains the same whether we upgrade from pikes directly to infantry or go the pike to musket to rifle route first. I think we'd be much better off connecting the saltpeter so we can selectively upgrade some pikes for defense. Personally I don't think we should be concentrating too much on pikes or muskets - we need knights!

Shaitan · Dec 31, 2002

I tend to agree with EK and donsig here. First, defensive units are not a great concern. The MP capacity of a pike is just as good as a musket and its cheaper to build. Our interior and backwater cities will most likely never see a unit upgrade. Stick pikes everywhere possible. When we have saltpeter connected build muskets but for now pump out pikes.

We need quite a few more knights very quickly. Our continued supremacy requires another offensive in the very near future. We should be bankrolling cash now for the upcoming knight -> cavalry upgrade. That's the cheapest and most effective upgrade we're going to see and we need to take advantage of it.

roadcage · Dec 31, 2002

We need quite a few more knights very quickly. Our continued supremacy requires another offensive in the very near future. We should be bankrolling cash now for the upcoming knight -> cavalry upgrade. That's the cheapest and most effective upgrade we're going to see and we need to take advantage of it.

CGCDG's problem is not military, which is reasonably adequate, but rather woefully inadequate infrastructure both interms of tile development and city structures. You have chosen the path of the warrior which by itself cannot win on advanced levels. What you desperately need is some more workers. Workers to connect your numerous otherwise tradable luxuries. Workers to connect that critical Saltpeter tile. Workers to improve city tiles so that building the necessary city structures is worthwhile.

Do not think of your workers as a dead weight that must be supported. Instead think of them as a pop bank which will be re-deployed post railroad back to your cities. Consider this thread from a competing Civ Forum

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70039

Yes, it is premature to be thinking of Hoover Dam and a mountain of shields, but you should be doing things that maintain Nikita's dream.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

Octavian X · Dec 31, 2002

An interesting observation. I cannot help but notice that our best terrain was improved by the civ we captured the land from. Throughout Fanatika, our infastructure is just roads connecting cities, with a couple of mines here and there. Could we get a higher population city (perhaps Palanthus?) to start pumping out workers?

Cyc · Dec 31, 2002

OT - Yes, I have been asking for some irrigation for quite a while now. I see nothing wrong with growth. As for Worker production, the cities that would recoup the quickest would be the ones with the most food. These would be: Zorgonzolia, Dacula, Trader's Inn, Palanthus, Octavinium, and Eklektochtitlan.

On Topic - I believe we need to rebuild our Military. I don't think it makes sense to build backwards units. Today's unit is the Musketman. Let's stick with it. I also see nothing wrong with discretionary upgrades to send to the borders. And YES, we need Knights! If we are going to take the Americans, we need an attack force.

roadcage · Dec 31, 2002

I believe we need to rebuild our Military. I don't think it makes sense to build backwards units. Today's unit is the Musketman. Let's stick with it. I also see nothing wrong with discretionary upgrades to send to the borders. And YES, we need Knights! If we are going to take the Americans, we need an attack force.

CFCDG's problem is not insufficient land, or city count, but abismal development of the land and cities you have. You already have sufficient realestate to be competative in the end game. This is not to say that you will not need to fight any more wars, because you will. You do need to rationalize your western and southern borders but these should be relatively minor campaigns compared to the Japaneese. A few more cities from the border straightening campaign will flesh out your ample empire. The era of the builder is at hand. Heed the call, or you will be unable to field an appropriate military for the glorious conquests of the Industrial era that is your Civ's destiny.

Falcon02 · Dec 31, 2002

Roadrage, I feel your comments would be better placed in the "Who is Our Next Target?" thread, please redirect them there. Regardless if we now go the "builder's route" or we contine waging war, the question would still remain how to manage the production of defensive units in the near future.

Anyway, I'm now under the opinion that we should go ahead with pure Musket production, the number advantage we'd gain wouldn't be that great, IMHO.

Pikes or Muskets?

General

is not a pipe.

Deity

Eponymous

Deity

Deity

General

Deity

Grumpy Submariner

is not a pipe.

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Looking for the door...

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der Besucher

Chieftain

is not a pipe.

Looking for the door...

Chieftain

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