Who Is Our Next Target

In the informational poll on this subject, Shaitan talks about more discussion on who shall be our next target. As eyrei's discussion thread, entitled "our next enemy", he decided that America should be our next enemy and listed almost all the good reasons for doing so. But now he has reversed his decision, so I have started a new discussion thread, as I don't believe he wants that one used anymore. I did some research after seeing the poll, cause I really didn't know whether to choose Babylon or America. My first thoughts were of unit production, so I made a map of the basic boundries of Fanatika and showed the top 11 high shield producing cities in their approximate location.



As you can see in the map above, 8 of the 11 most productive cities are in the eastern half of the Nation. This would mean a quicker initial attack and resupplying of units if America was our next target, as opposed to Babylon, where a lot of troop transport would be required. Our Production and Cultural base can extend with depth to the East more easily than to the West. Another map-related point is that Washington is closer to Bavaria than Babylon is to Kyoto.

The Babs are one spot higher on the Histograph than the Americans, by about 40 points. The Babs have 3 of the top 5 cities of the world. They also have 2.5 times the Culture we do, whereas the Americans only have about one third more Culture than us. If we took all of America, we would gain 8 Lux's and Resources (3 Dyes, 1 Iron, 1 Spice, 1 Salt Peter, 1 gold). If we took all of Babylon we would gain 15 (6 Ivorys, 2 Horses, 3 Spice, 1 Dye, 1 Salt Peter, 1 Iron, and 1 gold). Both are in a Monarchy, however the Babs are religious, so they would not go through a long Anarchy period switching Govrnments.

Now for the fighting. In a basic 10 turn t/c, if we were to attack the Americans, we could/should capture 3 cities, 1 Dye, and 1 Iron. In the same amount of time, if we were to attack the Babs we could capture 2 cities and 2 Ivorys.

The big difference to me in the two attacks is that in attacking the Babs, we would have to go non-stop for quite a long time, maybe even all the way to Babylon. The attack on America would not be so pressing and could be done in a very strategic manner with lots of back-up and mid-field plan changes. Therefore I would not think of attacking the Babs unless I had about 25 units lined up for action in Kagoshima. On the other hand I think I would attack the first three cities in America with 5 units in the Burrows and 5 units in Padmativa. to me, that is a crucial point. The time factor involved for preparing the Bab rush is considerably longer than the Yank rush, and the loses in the Bab rush would be very depressing.

Going through all this info, I counted 7 yea's for America and only 5 for Babylon. As America has more or less been our "next target" for a long time (and we do have experience kicking their butt ), and the main factors I see point to them, I am going to have to vote for attacking the Yanks next.

As I have stated, I am torn on this issue. One thing that keeps nagging me is the fact that, were we to take out all of our neighbors to the west and south, we would likely win the game, since we would then only have to defend the land bridge to the east. We could then, with the onset of Panzers, easily take enough additional land to achieve a domination victory.

However, America is a much better immediate target than any of our other neighbors, and, as Cyc stated, this war could be pursued in a very orderly and efficient manner. It would take some diplomatic manuevering to keep our other neighbors out of the war, but I believe this could be accomplished. The acquisition of American lands would also provide more of an immediate benefit than those of Bablyon, due to the proximity of our capital.

Yet, it would be most beneficial to knock Babylon down a few rungs on the ladder. Perhaps a war to relieve them of most of their border cities is in order. On further consideration, I have decided that I consider an outright invasion of Babylon a task best saved for a massive Blitzkrieg later in the game due to their cultural superiority. However, I do think we could take and hold a few cities....

I'm sorry guys but now that we have gunpowder I'm going back to my first instinct - we should take out Russia. The main argument aginst attacking Russia is that they will soon get their UU. Well, no one has chemistry so Russia is 2 techs from military tradition. They have only two sources of saltpeter and one is on Riga - which is surrounded by Fanatika. Better yet, they have no doomestic supply of horses that I can see. If we could disentangle our selves form any Russian alliances and get some trade embargoes going to ensure horses aren't imported to Russia we would not have to worry about Cossacks. We could eliminate the Russian threat while keeping our easy to defend border near America. Attacking Russia would also give us the full benefit of our FP in Kyoto.

My main objection to America is that land bridge. Right now we have a minor exposure to attack along that bridge. If we take America we expose ourselves to attack from England and France and greatly multiply our eastern border. America is also not much of a threat.

The key to maintaining our supremacy is to continually knock down the civs that are a genuine threat. We can go and whack America a bit but during that time Babylon will be growing larger and stronger and their culture will continue to expand.

America is a better tactical target but Babylon is a much better strategic target.

donsig has thrown Russia into the mix and he raises some valid points. The Russian UU is deadly and if we can prevent them from being effective by knocking Russia backwards that can only be a good thing. This worked amazingly well against Japan and was one of the prime reasons we targeted them - their samurai presented a real danger to us.

I have to agree with Donsig.

My thoughts up until now have always been to take out Babylon first, using Russia and the other western nations to assist us. However, in doing so, we would most likely gain the smallest share of Babylonian holdings due to our lack of proximity.

Another concern of mine has been to delay our next attack until the advent of Cavalry (due to the superior defensive capabilities of musketmen). However, if we can isolate the Russian source of saltpeter, then we effectively eliminate their defenses against our knights.

Also, we have more to gain from an annexation of Russian lands, both within our borders and just outside of them. One point to consider, though, is that Riga may flip over to our side in the next couple of turns due to culture assimilation.

By taking the lion's share (if not all) of Russian lands first, we establish a good launching point for a potential future invasion of Babylon down the road. One in which we would be better poised to stake our fair claim to their lands.

I'm sorry, but I don't see Russian coassacks as a big threat. All they can do is act as mustketmen because of a slightly larger defense capibility, but they shouldn't be a problem for our cavalry.

I will, though, switch my vote from America to Babylon (as much as I'd like to swipe Lincoln's hat). America will never be a threat, and will be easy prey once motorized transportation is discovered. Babylon, on the other hand, is a possible candidate for the more peaceful victories, like culture, diplo, and spaceship. They have high culture, good reputation, and lots of manufacturing capability.

We should attack Babylon, with allies is possible (Perhaps we could use Hammurabi to distract the Cossacks).

The reason I like the option of America is because of the easily obtainable fertile land that will allow quick growth and production. This will help us in our attack of Babylon.

The reason I don't like Babylon is we will be sending our boys into a meat grinder and the progress will be very slow. If we are able to hold onto the cities we take (Culture Flipping will make the task even more daunting), I'm sure the Babs would rather knock the cities down to size one or two rather than let us take them. Babylon will be a nightmare, no matter how we decide to approach them.

Russia can be seen as an interesting target, but the war with them would be very short, I believe. We wouldn't want to waste many men heading to far West, as we would be opening ourselves up to the Babs. But those initial cities close to our Forbidden Palace do look tastey. I was kind of hoping the Yanks would bring the Russians in on an alliance against us an by then, capturing those cities would be no problem.

Originally posted by Cyc
Russia can be seen as an interesting target, but the war with them would be very short, I believe. We wouldn't want to waste many men heading to far West, as we would be opening ourselves up to the Babs. But those initial cities close to our Forbidden Palace do look tastey. I was kind of hoping the Yanks would bring the Russians in on an alliance against us an by then, capturing those cities would be no problem.

Click to expand...

A short war is in our favor though. Remember, we still have to gear up for the next war. That'll take 15-20 turns depending on how much our governors build for the military department. A quick Russian war that could be fought with knights would fill out our FP production radius and maybe get us another great leader would help to strengthen us for our next war. If things work out we can perhaps even end up making peace with a vanquished Catherine and get military tradition from them. If so we could then retool for a cavalry war against either Babylon or America. Russia is also a foe we can tackle on our own, meaning we would not have to share the spoils or risk allies becoming stronger from our war. Since we are already committed to the Sic 'em on Xerxes strategy and are on the verge of renewing the Chinese alliance versus Persia we might as well let all those Babylonian, Indina and Chinese troops continue their trek to Persepolis.
If we could manage to cut off the Russian's supply of horses we wouldn't even have to worry about Russian knights. And if Riga flips to us in the next few turns this would be an even easier war for us.

This is an excellent topic and discussion thread. I find Cyc's analysis compelling, and certainly there is more fertile land to be had in America.

I tend to agree though with the analysis that the one sure way we can win this game is to take our side of the land bridge.

Further, as long as America exists and is friendly to us, they remain a decent buffer from the multiple aggressive enemies to our east.

I think Babalyon is risky a nut to crack without Calvary, the resupply distances are great. I agree with donsig that Russia provides a tempting target, and that our existing Knights would find success in Catherine's back yard.

I would urge all preparations for attacks against Russia.

I must say. This is the type of thread the DG needs for survival. Here are my 2gp on this issue:
We have three possible oponents. Babylon (culture), America (Production) and Russia (easy pickings)
I say we do Russia. Babs are a tough nut to crack, Abe is still available. We need to strike Russia while they are Knight/Cossack-less

I think I could support a very quick surgical strike on a couple of Russian hamlets.

As Governor Elect of Taliesin, I see that many of the cities in your map are in my province. I feel that a military override will be in need for some of the cities. I will keep the infastructre in line, but it looks like knights and musketmen may be in order for my queues.

My feelings are thus....

America... most benificial to our nation as a whole due to the proximity to the Captial we have a chance of getting some good produciton centers

Babs... huge culture threat, we need to end that threat at some point, before they start flipping Jap cities or even gain a culture victory.

Russians.... pretty much worthless except for extorting tech and gold.

With this I believe we should maybe "nip" at Babylon... razing (I know I said the forbidden word) some of their cities maybe 2-3 and then trying to get an acceptable profitiable if not neutral peace. Why do I say "raze?" because due to the Bab's culture it would be next to impossible to keep those cities, not to mention they would provide us with no real benifit anyway. America on the other hand, I feel should be totally conquered, due to it's productive potential.

This is what I think we should do... what order, I don't think really matters with this plan, but I think this is what we should do... btw I agree with roadrage's recent comments that we need to get to a building period soon.

"I agree with roadrage's recent comments that we need to get to a building period soon."

I have also been saying this.

We should attack the Americans, they are in the stronger side of our country and could be attacked very easily.

I do not agree. If we take the USA, we open up ourselves to even more countries(France, Britain). I say altough Babylon will be a longer war, that we attack them!

Goonie

If we attack the Babs then we will be open to other countries as well, even more hostile countries.

I think Goonie means a border with those other countries. We already border (even by a few tiles) all countries in the west except for China. BTW, doesn't our border (based on that map) look like the former Soviet Union a bit?

Do we realy want to border China, English and France already have an access to Our cities if they dare to attack us. The Americans are realy annoying us also.

Originally posted by Chieftess
BTW, doesn't our border (based on that map) look like the former Soviet Union a bit?

Click to expand...

I noticed that... but I decided not to say anything.

I don't think that America provides as much as a buffer as many think, the english can currently enter our lands w/o entering US land, which means at the very least, there's a leak in the buffer.