Diplomacy at it's best...well sort of :)

Surprising, I've found being somewhere in the middle of the pack throughout an entire game to be quite fun.

Playing on Deity on a Huge Map with 15 others Civs makes for an amazing experience if you don't try to play 'perfect'

Most of us are familiar with the settler/worker bomb because most of us start the game with the intention to win the thing. And in almost all cases, we jump into a comfortable lead and play from there.

Now try this. Just once. Ignore everything you've read @Fanatics regarding the big win. Try to suppress your urge to 'play right'. Instead, play like a superpower's ugly sister. I'm from Canada so I'm familiar with the feeling.

Don't be the superpower yourself in any of the stats. You're not playing to win because technically and historically, no civilization has ever 'won'. Everything goes in cycles so treat your timeline to 2050 as a blink of the eye in human history.

When you're the best, everyone licks your boots. When you're the among the worst, others come to take your lunch money. But if you're, say, fourth or fifth or sixth among fifteen, then you have some interesting dynamics.

When you're not playing to win but rather just playing just for respect, there's actually a lot more to think about with regards to diplomacy.

When you can't just flex your culture muscle or stack up a dozen tanks at will, asking ol' Liz to move it or lose it is heck of a lot more interesting than if you already know what her answer is going to be.

Quick example (as accurate as I can remember it. It's 2:13am)

Huge Earth Map. I am China. Rank 5th over all in score.

Year: 1875. All original starting civs still around.

America, ranked 1st, located where they're supposed to be, requests a joint attack on France, ranked 9th in score but had a killer Navy and several macho stacks of Riflemen.

I think (but cannot prove because I didn't see it happen) France jacked one of the State's European cities (probably a size 2 or 3).

I declined America's request because 1. France was across the continent and 2. The States were too far away to away to threaten me if I didn't.

<Please wait>

India ranked something like 10th, declares war on France.

Then Germany (2nd) declares war on the States.

<Please wait>

Japan (4th) declares war on America.

France then asks me to declare war on the States! I agreed but pulled a Canada (namely, I did nothing) and waited.

Japan makes land fall on the west coast of North America
America makes landfall in Russia (some French properties out there).

Germany's landing force, loaded upon a decent sized convoy with support armada (which had to depart from Sweden as they didn't own any western ports), was sunk in the North Atlantic by 2 Privateers! The commissioner remains at large!

War appears to end.

Ranking of the principles still the same.
1. USA
2. Germany
4. Japan
5. China (me)
9. France
10. India

No much has changed EXCEPT number 1 ranked America is sitting directly beside me now with a sizable landing force. Ok huge. But they are not mobilizing.

Couple of turns pass.

Japan demands silks. I tell him to take a hike.

Couple of turns pass.

America demands my World Map. I didn't take a chance. I gave it to them. They were right beside me.

Next turn...

Greece (12th) has a bunch of Riflemen wander across my western border. "Get out or declare war!" I yell.

They declare war.

<Please wait>

America declares war on us as well!!! (I'm assuming they are in bed with the Greeks)

OK. Point is, if I was ranked #15, I probably would not have gotten away with saying no to Japan. I still would have said yes to America. I would not have challenged Greece. Greece would not have declared war right away. America would care less.

If I was #1, Japan would still probably make her demand. I'd still would have said no. I would have still told the Greeks to beat it. The Greeks would not probably not have declared war. Since I'm assuming the Greeks asked for an alliance with America when they declared, by virtue of the Greeks not declaring, America would have stayed quiet as well.

But sitting at #5...ahh...crap hit the fan and it caught me completely by surprise.

That's Civ.

See ya!

Great article, interesting one too. I may give it a try and see how it goes.

Instead, play like a superpower's ugly sister. I'm from Canada so I'm familiar with the feeling

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In that case Im set too!

Great idea. I should try that out

Sounds like fun, I'll play to be mediocre.

"Pulling A Canada..."

I LOVE it! I'm from New Zealand, I fully understand what you mean!

how do you get started? do you just wait to put out some settlers? or do you hold back on the culture? great wonders or no?

~ Brendan

Originally posted by Totoro

Now try this. Just once. Ignore everything you've read @Fanatics regarding the big win. Try to suppress your urge to 'play right'. Instead, play like a superpower's ugly sister. I'm from Canada so I'm familiar with the feeling.

history.

See ya!

Click to expand...

that's not true totoro, we all like you guys down here!!

A great idea, can be a lot of fun. I did something similar after my first win on deity. I started with the english on deity on a cold world vs all the warmonger civs and forbid myself pop rushing. It was kinda interesting and I humbled myself a bit.

What you guys think of a download sav for all to share our loser attitude? I would call it the "Cliff Barnes Challenge" (if somebody remembers Cliff Barnes, the loser from "Dallas", who always was bullied by J. R., and there was of course a band named "Cliff Barnes and the fear of winning"). Could be very interesting from a strategic point of view also.

When I want a semi-relaxing game I'll play emporer, if I want a real challenge I'll play diety and ever since I"ve moved beyond
regent/monarch I seem to always be in the middle of the pack, I wouldn't play any other way now because like you said you have alot more options when you are middle of the pack.

Ok, made a new thread in the strat forum http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40656 , because this could be a bit misleading. Of course I mentioned that you take all the credit for this idea, Totoro.

Most of us are familiar with the settler/worker bomb because most of us start the game with the intention to win the thing. And in almost all cases, we jump into a comfortable lead and play from there

Click to expand...

That's funny: I'm almost never the leader until the end of the Industrial age. I don't think I play intensively/carefully enough to take an early lead, so I'm used to feeling like Canada.

I can find myself in this situation by just playing out a bad starting location. My current game:

Monarch, Huge, Cold, Arid, 3 billion, 15 civs. Thank you, RNG. I'm Scandanavia so at least I'm used to the cold weather.

My start was alone on the smallest continent, no luxuries, only iron through early industrial era. 12 non-tundra/non-mountain squares on the continent. Staring alone, I didn't have to worry about early wars, but had nobody to trade with until very late BC. I've captured gems and saltpeter from the Ottomans who had nearly as bad a start as I did.

I'm currently 6th, soon to be 5th and I consider this a moral victory. This is the kind of game I used to give up on, but I've discovered recently that finishing 4th can actually feel good when just surviving looks like it'll be difficult early in the game. And, yes, the diplomacy involved is much tougher than when you're leading the pack.

Somebody asked how you get started on a 'real world' typeof game where you're neither the best nor the worst.

For me, not doing the settler rush almost guarantees that I won't be in first place. Anywhere above Monarchy requires pretty shrewd gaming if you want to be tops without doing the settler/worker/settler/work gig.

Even with great resources or an ideal starting point, you'll be hard pressed to keep up with the AI civs without the settler rush. But if you play diligently, by that I mean try to build quality cities, farm and mine land appropriately (not every single free square in a size 4 city), you will be comfortably snuggled in the middle. Don't get careless because the AI is tough.

or is it...

Again, for fun, and I'm sure a lot of you have seen it. Use the editor to open up a map. Don't cheat or anything but turn on DEBUG mode. Save the scenario.

Start the saved scenario. The entire map is revealed because you're in DEBUG mode. Plant your first city and watch the AI plant theirs.

Whereas you get 1 Settler, 1 Worker and 1 Scout (if you're an expansionist), the AI gets quite a bit more. I counted each AI, in Diety mode, to start with 5 (!) settlers at the very beginning. That means with 15 opponents, you're going to be facing a rockface right from the get go.

I am pretty sure the AI gets 2 settlers to start with on Diety and a bunch of other bonus units. I learned this from watching the map replay at the end of the game, and the fact that I am always have a little less than half the score of the AI at the beginning of the game.

For my part, I am more likely to quit a game where the foregone conclusion is that I am going to dominate for the rest of the game and win however I like, than I am a game where I have to come from behind just to be a viable civ.

Edit: Oh yes, nice first post totoro and welcome to CFF.

Originally posted by cromagnon

That's funny: I'm almost never the leader until the end of the Industrial age. I don't think I play intensively/carefully enough to take an early lead, so I'm used to feeling like Canada.

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same here. playing on deity. already in modern age, and still 4th of the 7 remaining civs (started with 16!)



i agree that this makes the game very very exciting, as i haven't got the lead at any point throughout history, but i'm getting there

Originally posted by Totoro
Again, for fun, and I'm sure a lot of you have seen it. Use the editor to open up a map. Don't cheat or anything but turn on DEBUG mode. Save the scenario.

Start the saved scenario. The entire map is revealed because you're in DEBUG mode. Plant your first city and watch the AI plant theirs.

Click to expand...

So we can be omniscient, just like the AI! Well, not quite: we still can't see into their cities (or can we?) Still, I didn't know this trick. Thanks, Totoro.

It would almost be ... fair!

Originally posted by Gothmog
I am pretty sure the AI gets 2 settlers to start with on Diety and a bunch of other bonus units. I learned this from watching the map replay at the end of the game, and the fact that I am always have a little less than half the score of the AI at the beginning of the game.

Click to expand...

It was mentioned in an article.
Can't remember which one it was, but the AI do get x-tra units + settlers in Deity

The details of what extras the AI gets in Deity can be get in the Editor. I'm too lazy to check right now, but I'm pretty sure it's two Settlers (plus a bunch of other units, of course).