Science Discussion: The Dawn of the industrial Revolution

Science Department

Thanks to Chieftess's swift trade tactics, we have gained Chemistry and Economics. Now, we must decide if we should persue on heading to Military Triditon or try to discover Physics, Theory of Gravity, Magnitism, and other techs that are required to Jump up to the next era

Please fell free to discuss .

I will get to the Tech tree ASAP .

We desperately need Mil Trad.

We should purchase the necessary techs if possible as soon as possible. Then we can extort the remainder of the techs from the Indians or trade with the other nations for those techs if necessary.

Here are the preliminary results. I am still working on them:

Metallurgy - Cost: approx. 1500g

16turns 70gpt -93gpt 1488g
29turns 110gpt -53gpt 1537g

Physics - Cost: approx. 1600g

19turns 70gpt -93gpt 1488g



France

Metallurgy for WM, 38gpt, (628g OR 551g + ROP)
(This deal costs us 1388g total w/out the ROP)

Peace + Metallurgy for WM 38gpt, (498g OR 418g + ROP)
(This deal costs us 1258g w/out the ROP)

Physics for WM, 73gpt, (197g OR 120g + ROP)

Peace, Physics for WM, 70gpt, (113g OR 33g + ROP) (1433g total)

Act of Desperation: Peace, Phsyics, for our only source of ivory and wines, 28gpt, 11g. (We would have to deal with any possible unhappiness)

Russia

Metallurgy for Gems, Dyes, WM, 38gpt, 250g. (1010g total)


China

Peace, Physics for Spices, 46gpt, 247g (1167g total)

Metallurgy for Spices, WM, 45gpt, 217g (1117g total)

Peace, Metallugy for Spices, WM, 38gpt, 182g (948g total) Note: An ROP does not change this deal

Peace, Metallurgy and Physics together far exceed 100gpt!


Note - Since Russia and the Iroquois do not have Physics, we can trade those to them for possible techs, or even extra gold! The Zulus and Rome also don't have physics, but are losing ground fast.

Approx. cost of Physics and Metallurgy per our own research: 3100g
Cost for trades: -

Current Treasury: 163gpt, 644g
Remaining Treasury: -

(results are still coming)

Zulus - They would pay 3gpt, 20g, WM and TM for economics or chem. (I'd pick econ.) But, the Zulus only have 4 cities left, and are at war with Rome and Persia.

Here's something else to note. England is behind in techs, and France has cavalry. Should we help England to prevent a French attack on them? If France were to conquer England, that will change the balance of power in that region of the world. I also recommend that we trade for physics first, since it will be more valuble to most civs (not everyone has it), and we can probably get mil. trad. in there somewhere. Russia also wants two of our gems. That could be a bargaining point for any other techs they might have.

Keep in mind that the Iroquois have 341g (which would knock the total cost of both techs off a bit). I really think we need to stop warmongering for a bit and CAREFULLY watch any treaty-less nations waltzing through our borders. Even though we want to take Russia, we have to take into consideration the fact that we're about to fall critically behind in techs. Russia may even have Cossacks already, and we could USE them against Babylon to rid the culture threat.

If France will be passing trough our land then it might be a good idea to have a deal with them - so history wont repeat itself.

But the trade with Russia are cheaper. Are we thinking of attacking Russia after India?

And does anyone have any idea how much Military Tradition will cost us?

Originally posted by Cheetah
If France will be passing trough our land then it might be a good idea to have a deal with them - so history wont repeat itself.

But the trade with Russia are cheaper. Are we thinking of attacking Russia after India?

And does anyone have any idea how much Military Tradition will cost us?

Click to expand...

"Aye, that's the rub". We may be attacking them soon, but the world is becoming industrialized. Our knights aren't going to do any good against riflemen, and we are well behind in techs. (by atleast 5-6 techs!). We could use these 20 turns to build up and rejoin the tech race (as if there is one). The other trades are more expensive simply because we have no luxs to give.

Current trade deals (with the turns remaining in parenthesis) are:

France - 20gpt for spices (6) (Peace can be renegotiated)
Russia - ROP (12), Allience vs. Indians, Peace Treaty, Incense (neither can be renegotiated)
Babylon - 26gpt for gems (6), 20gpt for Incense (9), Allience vs. the Indians (12), Peace + we are giving 25gpt (perhaps for a tech), ROP (16)
Zulus - Allience with the Persians (can be renegotiated), Peace Treaty (16)
Rome - Peace (16)
Greece - 18gpt for Incense (11), Peace (16)
America - Peace & we are giving Gems (18)
Iroquois - ROP (can be renegotiated), Allience vs. India & Gems & 4gpt (12 turns), Peace (16), 8gpt for our furs (18), Dyes & 10gpt (for a tech - 20 turns)
China - Peace (can be renegotiated), 14gpt for our furs (6), Allience vs. india & 37gpt (12)

We're giving 26, 4 and 37gpt for the alliences. In 12 turns (India will probably be history, or a shell of their former selves), we regain 67gpt. After 12 turns, that 146gpt income might be enough for 2 or 3 more techs. After this war is over, we do need to recover our economy. But, I think if you take the AI's capital, they're more willing to give you techs.

Good job on the report CT... Only, next time, could you make it a little more detailed?

I think our plans with respect to Russia have changed since the Indian invasion and now that Mil Tradition has hit center stage. I personally don't like the idea of taking on the Russian Cossacks when we can serve Fanatika much better by making them allies.

Presently, India would rather continue to fight us than trade any of their technology to us. Satsuma should fall in one turn and those units can then rejoin the fight in the west. We must convince Gandhi that surrender is a preferrable option to exile (or worse). After the alliances have run their course, hopefully we will be in a position to extort ourselves into the Industrial Era.

Therefore, we should purchase our way to Military Tradition so that we do not lose our military edge (so to speak), and Physics so that we can extort the remaining two techs of the Middle Ages.

The Iro's are polite and doing well technologically. As our nieghbor, they will probably remain polite. We also have 3 current deals with them so there is stability there. They are also doing well in the savings category. Their bank allows them to stay up on reasearch. This is a good thing, especially if we buy Metallurgy from them. Their bank will increase more, allowing more research.

We can buy Metallurgy from the Iro's for our World Map, 644g (all our gold), and 40gpt. This isn't a bad deal. By remaining on good terms with Hiawatha, we will have a good ally, in case Joan gets a little testy. By keeping a close, strong, technologically advanced, financially stable ally, we will be helping ourselves into the Industrial age. We will recoup the lost gold quickly and I'm sure Hiawatha would be more than happy to sell us Military Tradition. Plus this deal doesn't use any of our Lux's, which we may need for other things (I'm not sure if Hiawatha needs any more Lux's as he is already getting 3 from us), but a Lux may sweeten this deal also. I think we should consider the Iroquois as trading partners again.

The only problem with that deal Cyc, is that it will end up costing us (in terms of gold) almost 500g more than if we purchased it from the Chinese. I'm all for continuing a friendly relationship with the Iroquois, but we are desperately behind in the tech race and we should be frugal with our gold so that we can attempt to purchase ourselves back into the race.

China

Peace, Physics for Spices, 46gpt, 247g (1167g total)

Click to expand...

If China will give us Physics for that price, we should take it. We can then trade Physics to at least four other civs to help pay for that trade. Trade Physics to someone for Metallurgy and whatever it takes(should be pretty even). That will open the big picture for Magnetism, Theory of Gravity and the crown jewel, Military Tradition!

FortyJ, if there is any way to scan the 3 books for the legality of a "quick chat" for these two trades, I think we should persue it.

True, 40J. But you're also throwing in Spices. Is our Spice worth 25gpt? I think so. But you're right about China, in regards to a good partner. Our deals with China will be ending soon, and our deals with the Iro's will last much longer at this time (according to the above stats). So a deal with China would strengthen our southern border.

We could also sell Physics to those who may need it for a handsome price once we acquire it.

Unrelated note(sorry so fragmented):

Do you know that Babylon will sign an MPP for free?

(Thanks to the administration: This game is even more intriguing than I expected! It is nice having a professional do the accounting on trade and research; I generally wing it and spend my time mumbling melodramatically to myself about grand strategy.)

I agree with what has been voiced so far concerning wars, in that we have no business getting involved in any new ones until have a strong force of cavalry and cannon. We still need to push through with the conquest of India to secure our southwestern frontier and to keep the Iriquois and and Chinese from gaining the ground and building up their resources.

If we are not going to block French passage across Fanitakia, then let’s get a peace treaty with them and give them ROP. Maybe even build a cut-off or two so they get to the Iriquois sometime before the treaty runs out. With the Russians invading China and the French taking on the Iriquois, life is pretty good on the western front.

All of the recent revelations should shove the Russian campaign plans to a far corner of the desk. France and America are going to be much greater threats in the Industrial Age and Babylon is going to be the plum target for conquest. With a little luck, France will clear a path to Babylon’s borders for us by ravaging the eastern Iriquois lands. The Russians have less of a resource base than the other western powers and would be a useful ally against Babylon or anyone else in the neighborhood.

As Cheiftess proposes, getting physics first and using it to sweeten other deals makes a great deal of sense. There is no mention of military tradition in her listings, but France, at least, has it. Of course, she could be thinking that France is going to trade military tradition to someone in the next turn or so, and we might save physics for a turn to trade for it.

Pumping up the English and Romans as a counterweight to Persia and France seems an excellent idea. Of course , we should try to get a good price for our goods.

Feodor

Originally posted by FortyJ
The only problem with that deal Cyc, is that it will end up costing us (in terms of gold) almost 500g more than if we purchased it from the Chinese. I'm all for continuing a friendly relationship with the Iroquois, but we are desperately behind in the tech race and we should be frugal with our gold so that we can attempt to purchase ourselves back into the race.

Click to expand...

And being frugal could mean that desperate trade for just 20 turns. (We could get wines from the Iro. if they have any left, and ivory from Babylon or China).

Well, I guess my evaluation of our spice was way off base. Stupid AI. China will only pay us one-third of my guess. So China is a good deal, in deed.

I think we should acquire physics and then trade it to reduce the price of other techs. I don't expect that it will actually cover the cost of these techs because of the difficulty level, but it should reduce them by quite a bit.

We also need to think about who our next target really is going to be. Russia is bound to have Cossacks by some sort of trade. Babs are gonna start building riflemen. Even if we attacked, they'll draft like crazy. We could fight America, but they could get France on their side (Cav, AND riflemen)...

And the facts and figures for acquiring Physics and the possible trades stemming from that are where?

@Cyc, it's hard to determine what the next move would be after acquiring Physics, as the trade advisor is not allowed to see a civ's full hand beyond a certain point when it comes to research. We won't know what to bargain for.

That's why I recommended looking into the legality of a "quick chat", so that we may further explore those possibilities once a Physics trade is agreed upon and made. So far, no-one has shown interest in that at this point. If that continues, Saturday's chat will(or at least should) be limited to only that trade.

I believe once we get into the industrail ages, we should go after sanitation. I think we might get it first, and we can sell and trade it !