Adding GPT reduces trade value? (vanilla 1.29f)

Quandary · Mar 4, 2003

I'm interested in finding out if PTW has the same problem, and if others have noticed this.

I'm bartering for something. I have, for example, a lump sum gold payment on my side of the trade. My advisor tells me "we're close to a deal".

I try to put it over the top by adding GPT, and suddenly "they'd never accept" or, more often, "they'd be insulted".

It doesn't matter if the Civ attitude is furious, gracious, or anything in between. It also doesn't matter whether I have ample income to cover the deal, or am "shrinking".

No matter how much or how little I change the gold per turn to, they remain insulted. If I remove the GPT, I'm back to being "close to a deal".

Does anyone know if this is this just a flat out bug, or is there some oddball programming designer explanation of why this happens?

BTW: It doesn't have to be lump sum gold first offered then GPT added. I've had the same result with techs, luxuries, being "close" and going to "never accept" or "insulted" with the GPT added.

BTW2: This has happened to me in just about every game I've played, and I have no reputation hits. I don't break MPPs, attack after a GPT deal, abuse RoP, raise cities, etc, etc.

billindenver · Mar 4, 2003

They don't trust you. If you've broken a trade deal earlier in the game, that can happen. I know I've seen the same thing. It's kinda stupid sometimes.

The main way I get that message is this. Say I have my sliders set so that I have 6gpt income. If I got to the trade screen, and make an offer of 7 gpt, I'll get that message. If I go back to my sliders, and adjust so that I have 8 gpt income, and then try again, they'll accept it.

Moulton · Mar 4, 2003

Then, if you set your slider to --GPT, maybe they won't ask as much for a deal, like MPP, Alliance, or trade??? Or will this just generate the "Regretfully, I do not think this is possible" (Or less polite, depending on the relations.

billindenver · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by Moulton
Then, if you set your slider to --GPT, maybe they won't ask as much for a deal, like MPP, Alliance, or trade??? Or will this just generate the "Regretfully, I do not think this is possible" (Or less polite, depending on the relations.

You'll just get regrets. The AI has a minimum amount it will accept in gold and/or gpt. Sometimes, they'll do an MPP or alliance for free, or an even up luxury trade. Other times, you've gotta pay. But it doesn't matter how much gold or gpt you have, because they've already decided what it will cost you.

Quandary · Mar 4, 2003

The only problem here is that my reputation is, or sohuld be, unblemished and they're insulted by my adding GPT that my income will cover.

In my current game I've never made a GPT deal and declared war, never raised a city, never even entered into a MPP ot RoP agreement let alone betrayed one.

In fact of all the games I've played only once have I done any of those things, I burned a city, and when I saw the results I made certain to never do it again.

I play so darn clean that I keep diplomatic victory turned off so I don't end up winning too early, with a poor score due to my back end power load playing style.

Padma · Mar 4, 2003

Have you ever had a trade deal broken by enemy action? Like they pillage your road connection to the other civ? OR someone else destroys your trading partner? It's not your fault, but you get the Rep hit, anyway.

Check out Bamspeedy's AI Attitude article in the Strategy Articles forum.

Yoda Power · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by Padma
Have you ever had a trade deal broken by enemy action? Like they pillage your road connection to the other civ? OR someone else destroys your trading partner? It's not your fault, but you get the Rep hit, anyway.

Check out Bamspeedy's AI Attitude article in the Strategy Articles forum.

Padma maybe its just me, but since you become a mod, you have been much more active and helpfull in the civ community, which is great :thumbsup:

Padma · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Padma maybe its just me, but since you become a mod, you have been much more active and helpfull in the civ community, which is great

Well, it's probably just that I am spending less time in other forums, and more here.

I've always tried to be helpful when I've seen questions.

Moderator Action: Okay Padma, enough thread-jacking and self-congratulations! --Padma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

itsa95thing · Mar 4, 2003

I also have to say i think your doing a great job as mod Padma. i realy appreciate your thread about country bashing in the creation section as im american and am usualy on the bad end of it. Keep up the good work. :goodjob:

jeannie · Mar 4, 2003

I sometimes offer AI opponents 1 GPT as a gift in order to get them into a situation where they'll lose reputation if they declare war on me. I've recently moved up from Warlord to Regent - once, on Warlord, an AI was insulted by the gift, but now that I'm at Regent level, they often get insulted by the gift - a sure sign they're planning to attack.

But I've also had situations where I'm negotiating a peace treaty and, as I add items to the deal, the advisor goes from 'we're close to a deal' to 'they would never accept such a deal'. At that point, if I remove everything from the deal except the peace treaty, then start adding things again to both sides, the same deal that they would 'never accept' suddenly is acceptable! Maybe it's some aspect of the random number generator? (I keep the same seed, but perhaps I added things to the trade in a different order than the first time I came close to insulting them.)

billindenver · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by jeannie
I sometimes offer AI opponents 1 GPT as a gift in order to get them into a situation where they'll lose reputation if they declare war on me. I've recently moved up from Warlord to Regent - once, on Warlord, an AI was insulted by the gift, but now that I'm at Regent level, they often get insulted by the gift - a sure sign they're planning to attack.

But I've also had situations where I'm negotiating a peace treaty and, as I add items to the deal, the advisor goes from 'we're close to a deal' to 'they would never accept such a deal'. At that point, if I remove everything from the deal except the peace treaty, then start adding things again to both sides, the same deal that they would 'never accept' suddenly is acceptable! Maybe it's some aspect of the random number generator? (I keep the same seed, but perhaps I added things to the trade in a different order than the first time I came close to insulting them.)

I hate to break it to you, but if you are giving them 1 gpt as a gift, and they attack you, it is YOU who will get the rep hit. After all, you PROMISED them 1 gpt, and you stopped giving them 1 gpt, so you broke the deal (according to AI logic).

on edit: I should add that the fact you are giving them gpt does make it less likely that they will attack. If you offer a trade involving gpt for a tech right before they are going to declare war on you, it's very doubtful they will sell it to you for gpt.

jeannie · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by billindenver

I hate to break it to you, but if you are giving them 1 gpt as a gift, and they attack you, it is YOU who will get the rep hit. After all, you PROMISED them 1 gpt, and you stopped giving them 1 gpt, so you broke the deal (according to AI logic).

on edit: I should add that the fact you are giving them gpt does make it less likely that they will attack. If you offer a trade involving gpt for a tech right before they are going to declare war on you, it's very doubtful they will sell it to you for gpt.

Are you sure? I could understand it if we BOTH took a rep hit. In any case, offering 1GPT as a gift usually seems to work for me to prevent an AI from declaring war on me (I've tested this with reloading games where an AI declared war, and gifting them the 1 GPT the turn ahead of when they declared war.)

billindenver · Mar 4, 2003

I think they probably get a rep hit too.

Like I said, gpt does reduce the likelihood of an attack, so it is a good way to avoid war if they are threatening you.

Quandary · Mar 4, 2003

Padma asked:

Have you ever had a trade deal broken by enemy action? Like they pillage your road connection to the other civ?

I can't remember for other games, but in my present one yes, something to this effect happened.

I had sea routes to six Civs, was importing two luxuries from the Zulu, and somebody did something (I missed whatever it was) and I got a "we lost our lux" message and found that my route to the Zulu no longer worked.

So I got a reputation hit? Double fun since I paid for those two luxuries with up front lump sum cash and lost them a handful of turns later

I also had something going with Rome until the Zulu ate them up.

I hate militeristic Civs

billindenver · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by Quandary
Padma asked:
I can't remember for other games, but in my present one yes, something to this effect happened.

I had sea routes to six Civs, was importing two luxuries from the Zulu, and somebody did something (I missed whatever it was) and I got a "we lost our lux" message and found that my route to the Zulu no longer worked.

So I got a reputation hit? Double fun since I paid for those two luxuries with up front lump sum cash and lost them a handful of turns later

I also had something going with Rome until the Zulu ate them up.

I hate militeristic Civs

I don't think you got a rep hit for that. If you had an obligation to continue providing something every turn, and you stop providing it (cash or luxury or resource) THEN you get a hit, regardless of who caused it.

If you were trading with the Zulu giving them 30 gpt for Ivory, and they declare war on you, you still get a rep hit. But if you gave them 500 gold up front and no gpt, they would get a rep hit, not you. You just get stuck with wasting 500 gold.

Lord Vetinari · Mar 4, 2003

They should really start a AI stupiditys section on civ 3 like they did w/ civ 2. This thread is a good start. :rolleyes:

etj4Eagle · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by jeannie

But I've also had situations where I'm negotiating a peace treaty and, as I add items to the deal, the advisor goes from 'we're close to a deal' to 'they would never accept such a deal'. At that point, if I remove everything from the deal except the peace treaty, then start adding things again to both sides, the same deal that they would 'never accept' suddenly is acceptable! Maybe it's some aspect of the random number generator? (I keep the same seed, but perhaps I added things to the trade in a different order than the first time I came close to insulting them.)

Unless you reloaded the game the random seed is nolonger the same when you remake the deal. As you have used that seed and a set of numbers from the initial deal. Then when you clear the table you aren't resetting the random number sequence back, but continuing on in it.

Akka · Mar 4, 2003

Originally posted by Lord Vetinari
They should really start a AI stupiditys section on civ 3 like they did w/ civ 2. This thread is a good start.

You wish to talk about AI stupidities ?

Well, what about this one :

Quandary · Mar 5, 2003

I love it

billindenver · Mar 5, 2003

That has to be about the stupidest thing I've seen

. Maybe she'd like the deal better if you reversed it

.

Adding GPT reduces trade value? (vanilla 1.29f)

Prince

King

Monarch

King

Prince

the Absent Admin

✫✫✫✫✫✫✫

the Absent Admin

Chieftain

Warlord

King

Warlord

King

Prince

King

Patrician of Ankh-Morpork

ACME Salesman

Moody old mage.

Prince

King

Similar threads