Q about settler factory and granary

I'd like someone to let me (and others too) know exactly by how much you're advantaged to build an early granary in a city (capitol most of the time) and start to build settlers by dozens. I know this is much discussed here, but I'd like a clear topic for it (maybe it exists, so a link is welcome).

I've always considered Pottery as a poor tech, in Civ1 and Civ2, and I've never built granaries in my cities in the early game (rarely ever build some actually). I think of them as a cash loss for almost nothing : the ability to recover faster from a worker or settler building, as for this precise topic. I understand I'm now really wrong with Civ3, I read some topics about it and I'd like to start implementing this bit of strategy into my game style.

If anyone can provide me a short but clear and precise explanation of this, I'd be pleased. Let's say : a screenshot in 4000BC, the tale of an early empire bypassing Pottery and doing other cool stuff instead, and the tale of an early empire producing an army of settlers thanks to its granary, and comparison between both ways. Or even : settler factory with VS. settler factory without granary.

off-topic : What does "IIRC" means ?

There are two situations where a granary in your capitol is the obvious choice:

• 3 or more shielded grassland
• Bonus food for a total of +5 food per turn

In the first situation you have plenty of shields but limited growth so you can afford 60 shields to double growth. If you are not industrious you might want to build one settler first while you are mining the grassland.

A granary effectively doubles all your surplus food, making a town with 2 food grow in 5 turns like a town with 4 food normally would. In the second situation all 5 food will be doubled for growth every other turn. This is called a settler factory - it can crank out a settler every 4 turns.

Originally posted by kryszcztov

off-topic : What does "IIRC" means ?

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"If I Remember Correctly"

Can't help you on the granary issue much, but as I understand it it doubles your growth rate by only getting rid of half you food when your city grows. I usually put granaries in my cities after theyve produced a few settlers.

This is one of the big differences between Civ1 and Civ3!!

In Civ1 there is really very little point to the granary, since shields and settlers accumulate at about the same rate, and the amount of wheat needed to grow increases every time the city grows.

In Civ3 a granary pays for itself quite quickly!

Let's take a simple example with a city that has one sheaf of wheat yielding 4 food/turn and bonus grassland everywhere else yielding 2 food and 2 shields.

Strategy A: aim for an immediate settler.

5 turns of +4 wheat and +2 shields at size 1
5 turns of +4 wheat and +4 shields at size 2
= one settler every 10 turns, your capital returning to size 1 after each settler.

Strategy B: let your city grow, then aim for immediate settlers.

first 5 turns: +4 wheat and +2 shields, produce a warrior
next 5 turns: +4 wheat and +4 shields, produce what you want
next 5 turns: +4 wheat and +6 shields, produce a settler, repeat last 2 steps

= one settler every ten turns, starting at your 15th turn, but in exchange, you get 20 extra shields per ten turns for archers or warriors or half-price barracks or whatever.

Or, let the city grow one step further, and get one settler every ten turns, starting at your 20th turn, but get an extra *40* shields per ten turns for other things.

Strategy C: immediate granary

5 turns: +4 wheat, +2 shields
5 turns: +4 wheat, +4 shields (30 shields total)
5 turns: +4 wheat, +6 shields: at the end of 15th turn, granary is complete, and you have a size 4 city.

next 5 turns: +4 wheat, +8,8,8,10,10 shields as your city grows to size 6 and spits out a settler.

Thereafter, produce a settler every *five* turns with 14 shields left over. (or let it grow one step more, wait only *3* turns longer, and get an extra 34 shields per 5 turns left over!)

So here is how these 3 strategies stack up after various # of turns:

20 turns: A = 2 settlers, B = 1 settler + 40 production, C = 1 settler + 14 production
30 turns: A = 3, B = 2 + 80, C = 3 + 42
40 turns: A = 4, B = 3 + 120, C = 5 + 70
50 turns: A = 5, B = 4 + 160, C = 7 + 98

100 turns: A = 10, B = 9+production, C=17+production.

The exact rate of return depends on exactly how many shields and how many surplus foods you have on hand, but in almost ALL circumstances, the granary doubles the rate of settler production at the expense of delaying your first settler until everyone else has 2.

"IIRC" is "if I remember correctly," if I remember correctly.

granaries whip the llamas ass. i solve the cash crunch problem though by making the pyramid my #1 priority, even with civs that don't have the masonry skill to start out.

with my first town i always build 3 warriors then a settler, then depending on how much food the townspeople are making, i build a temple/warriors and then another settler or just straight into another settler.

by this point my first created settler has built his town, and i build a temple/warriors until that town can build its own settler. by now my 2nd settler from the capital has made his town, and i start cranking out warriors for defense from town 3. my capital starts on the pyramids (woo!). if i haven't traded for masonry yet, it starts on a granary.

while the capital builds the pyramids, town 2 and 3 build settlers, workers, archers/spearmen, barracks, and temple to optimum efficiency. i make sure to have a spearman+settler ready to go by the time i learn iron working (which i make a priority) so they can beeline to the nearest resource. that town makes a worker (to build a road to the iron), barracks, and swordsmen indefinitely.

by the time the pyramids are done i have 4-6 towns, most of which are producing culture, i'm building swordsmen, and now ALL of those town's food production is effectively doubled by the free granaries. i'm now in a position to crank settlers from my established towns and wedge new cities in between cracks in the other civ's territory.

uh ... woops that was a little long, well maybe someone will get ideas from it

oh and i also try to avoid giving anyone masonry, iron working, and literature ... i don't want other civs building the pyramids, great library, or building on iron deposits before i do.

:crazy:

Don't get discouraged if you are building an early granary and when you make contact, the other Civ has more cities than you. You will easily catch up. Another good idea is to make your second city build mostly military units, while your third city builds some workers and other units. You let your capital, assuming it's food rich, crank out the settlers. Early Wonders, IMO, are a waste of production. The Pyramids are very helpful for the whole game, but it is sometimes better to just expand the good ol' fashioned way while you let the AI waste their shields on Wonders. Even better is to then take the Wonders from them.

I would only add that Pottery is a tech that's easily traded for or purchased. The only reason I would research it is if I'm stuck on an island by myself. Any early research you do can be better applied to other techs.

You may have a point Wilbill, but check the SG threads. Every game starts with the "mandatory research of pottery."

Nice clear post DaveMcW. And the other posts are good too. I've never really bothered trying to project how a city will do multiple turns down the road in terms of food/production. Your post makes the decision process very easy.

How does the difficulty level effect this? I assume strategy A would not work at all on Deity as there are no troops to keep the peace and the entertainers would reduce the food or shield production too much?

Does that mean that on Deity that a granary or building the pyramids is almost essential?

Here's a thread that goes into quite a bit of detail for the debate of whether or not to build a granary:

Why granaries don't work

Don't let the name of the thread fool you, there are actually some very good information on why a granary CAN be a good build.

First, it depends on how much room you have to expand. On tiny/small maps, you'll run out of room to expand before the granary will benefit you (in the land-grab phase of the game). An early granary (or two) is more beneficial when you have more room to expand.

Second, although you may have to use the luxury rate a little, you will almost always make more money (because you are spending much less time at size 1 or 2, and more often at size 3+.

As you see in Charis's post in that thread, the granary will delay expansion temporarily, but you will catch up later and surpass a city with no granary. Whether you are looking for short-term or long-term benefits would affect your decision.

And terrain is the biggest factor, and it's hard to set any specific rules about this, since there are so many variables (food, bonus resources nearby, shield production, etc.).

I wouldn't go overboard and say you should build a granary in every city as it's first build, but most of the time it is good to build 1 or 2 of them in cities that will build most of your workers/settlers.

I don't think I've ever built more than 2 granaries per game. I don't generally buld the second one, even, unless I have a capitol without much surplus food and a lot of empty land I need to occupy.

I am quite surprised at how many people feel granaries are only useful if you get +5 food. I feel the opposite: if you are getting THAT much food coming in, your shields are barely staying ahead of your food anyway. I find them most valuable when I have only +2 food! A settler every 10 turns isntead of every 20 turns is, in some sense, a "bigger improvement" than getting only every 4 turns instead of 8 is.

Originally posted by Pal {UI}
How does the difficulty level effect this? I assume strategy A would not work at all on Deity as there are no troops to keep the peace and the entertainers would reduce the food or shield production too much?

Does that mean that on Deity that a granary or building the pyramids is almost essential?

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You maintain happiness by using the luxury slider instead. This means that in the short term you sacrifice research and cash for growth, but this is an investment that will always pay off in the long run.
I agree that granaries become even more valuable when you do not have all that much excess food.

I always build a granary (unless building the Pryamids) in cities next to fresh water.
These cities can reach a pop of 12 before you have the ability to build aquaducts.

In my current game as Cathalage I built granaries in every city because there was not much else I could build as I was allone on an island and decided to research map making. It paid off as now I have contact with all civs and the AI civs only have contact with me.
All my cities have a pop of 6-12 and most are production powerhouses.
I can trade horsemanship to the Egyptians who have no horses and ironworking to the Turks who have no iron in the knowedge that they can not trade these techs between themselves.

Man I just got in the situation with the +5 food surplus. I built a granary and was dishing out settlers every 4 turns varying between size 4 and 6. By 1000BC I had double the land area of every other civ. This was on regent. And I'm still expanding (huge map with only 8 opponents).

Thanks to all for your answers. I will soon experiment this idea in my games and will surely find you're right. Thanks for the link, I'll check it when I have time. I more and more feel that this is a chess game of the tale of Humanity, with all those analysis of starting positions. But Civ calls for diversity in each game you play, which makes it far more difficult to master !

Originally posted by jack merchant


You maintain happiness by using the luxury slider instead. This means that in the short term you sacrifice research and cash for growth, but this is an investment that will always pay off in the long run.
I agree that granaries become even more valuable when you do not have all that much excess food.

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so you falleven further behind in techs and cannot buy any back, and still they can make settlers much faster than you. that could be fatal if not done extremely well....

Originally posted by farting bob

so you falleven further behind in techs and cannot buy any back, and still they can make settlers much faster than you. that could be fatal if not done extremely well....

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I'm no deity player, but the 'cannot buy any back' part of your statement isn't accurate. From what I understand, you turn science pretty much *all* the way off, researching at minimum if at all. That leaves plenty of cash to pile up, even with luxes up to 30% or 40% from time to time early on.

What could be fatal in this scenario is an utter lack of contacts.

Renata

Well I'm no deity player either, but I've used the no research strategy on monarch and emperor. I use the luxury slider a lot but I'm always still making profit. But anyway you don't buy most of your techs. Best way to keep up in research is to research an odd tech path at 10% or with one scientist. Usually you can get a couple techs before any of the AI does even at 40 turns per. Then you trade that tech to every other civ you have contact with and can get 3-4 other techs out of it. The other way is short wars. Even if your army is much weaker than your opponent you can usually hit them when they're not ready for it. Take one or two of their cities then pile them up with defensive units and hold out for a few turns until they answer your convoy. Get a few techs in the peace treaty, then repeat in 20 turns.

But yeah if you have no contacts you're pretty much screwed. Actually that's usually what I end up spending the cash I'm generating on. Contacts, embassies, and maps.