SP5 - Russian Researchers (PTW Deity SG)

Sirp

Emperor
Joined
Nov 19, 2001
Messages
1,746
Location
Texas
Level: Deity
Map: Pangea, Normal, 70% Water, others random.
Civilization: Russia
Rivals (EDITED): the Egyptians, Romans, Japanese, French, Indians, Carthaginians, and Spanish (note: none are scientific or expansionist!)
Patch: PTW 1.14f (note: not the latest!)
Victory Conditions: All
Variant rules: We're the Russian Researchers. We aim to outresearch all other civilizations, considering our science to be superior to others. We may not trade for technology from other civilizations unless,

(1) we sell them some of our technology in the exchange, or
(2) we sell them contacts with other civilizations in the exchange, or
(3) we do so in return for peace concessions.

Additionally, we may not do a trade where we buy multiple technologies from them, when we sell only one technology to them, and they don't consider our technology to be as valuable as some of their technologies.

e.g. if we have the Printing Press, and they have Steam Power and Electricity, we may trade them PP + gold for SP, or we may trade them PP + gold for Electricity, but we can't trade them PP + lots of gold for Electricity and Steam Power.

The idea is that we don't buy technology with cash. We research our own technology, and trade it for other technology, perhaps throwing some cash in if our technology is not as valuable, but never making cash the main part of the exchange.

Also, we may not build the Great Library, and if we capture it before we have discovered Education, we must raze the city. We despise such 'leeching', all good civilizations must research technologies themselves, not simply get them off others!

---

Being expansionistic will hopefully give us an early bonus in science and in contacts. Being scientific will put us ahead for the long haul.

None of our rivals are scientific, so this will give us an advantage in research. One of the main aims of the game is to see how possible it is to keep up with and even overtake Deity opponents in research. In the 'good old days', it would have been suicidal, now it might just be feasible.

There are only two spaces left, since some players have already expressed interest. Players must have had at least one Deity win either solo or in a succession game.

The game will go 20 for the first turn, and 10 thereafter. (There is plenty to do early on with an expansionist civilization).

The game may not start immediately; probably in a few days.

Roster:

Sirp
Arizona_Steve
T-Hawk
LKendter
Speaker
 
Sounds like fun Sirp. If I wasn't going away for 2 weeks soon, I'd definitely have liked to join... Oh well, I'll just have to read about it.

JMB
 
Well I may regret it since I see HIGH loss probability, but I'll take slot #5. We are really going to have to get some libaries ASAP.

I have no intention to upgrade past 1.14 until some of the internation versions come out.
 
Checking in; I'm here.

I thought this was going to be RBE7? :yeah:

Anyways, this game will require quite a bit of team coordination. On every turn report, the player should mention what we plan to research next, and let the group weigh in with opinions. I can easily envision someone researching Education while not realizing the previous player built 20 horsemen for upgrade to knights. :)

And let's try to make maximum use of our three free technologies. The Monotheism-for-Republic slingshot we used (almost accidentally) in LK41 would be very nice to pull off, not to mention a standard Nationalism Slingshot.
 
LKendter: Welcome.

I made an executive decision to edit the game settings so we're the only scientific OR expansionist civilization in the game. This way we have the two traits that give us the most knowledge both early on and later.

I thought this was going to be RBE7?

So it was; I forgot about that when creating the game.

Good ideas on team co-ordination T-Hawk. I'm not sure about Republic-for-Monotheism though. Aren't we going to want to get Republic ASAP so we can change into it?

Our starting location:

SP5-restart.jpeg


EDIT: Argh! I messaged up the game settings. Restarted (may have to reload page to get latest starting image).

I'm playin it now.
 
What I meant was this: if we find ourselves with a choice between researching Republic and the last required ancient age tech (call it Currency), go for Currency. Then, we'll have a package of Currency and Monotheism available to trade in one shot for Republic. Of course, don't do this if we're extremely behind, or if everyone who has Republic also has Currency and is into the middle ages.

Of course, it's unlikely that the opportunity for such a move will present itself; I'm just mentioning it in case it does. :)
 
4000BC (1): Looking very closely at the map, I think that's a cattle I can see peaking out from under the shroud, E-SE.

I send the scout to investigate. It is indeed cattle! There's also coast there. This gives me a decision to make: found the capital here, and get the cattle upon expansion, or move the settler two spaces, and get coastal access, fresh water, and the cattle after expansion? I choose to move the settler.

Worker moves onto position to irrigate toward the cattle.

Research set to Iron Working.

3950BC (2): Settler moves onto city site, scout explores north. For the first time ever this early, the worker does nothing! (has to wait until the city is founded before he can start irrigating)

3900BC (3): Moscow founded. Scout ordered. Research maxed, still shows 40 turns for IW, and I'm not too up on tech research costs, but I think that we can get it in significantly less than this.

3850BC (4): Goody hut sighted up north.

3800BC (5): Pop the hut, and we get a free city! In a half-ok location. On fresh water, although I'd have liked to put a city on the other side of the fresh water lake, getting some cattle in range. I'm halfway tempted to settler-abandon the city to do just that, but I restrain myself, instead building a warrior there.

3750BC (6): Blah.

3700BC (7): Our scout meets a French warrior. One that could march straight into undefended St Petersburg if that's what Joanie wants. She just has her starting technologies, as do we, and she'll trade Masonry for both of ours, but won't give Alphabet up.

I decide not to trade. Our technologies are reasonably valuable in this game, considering no-one else has them yet.

3650BC (8): We meet a Roman warrior, who beats us to a goody hut by one turn. Grrrr. He has apparently just made a trade with the French, since they both have Masonry, Warrior Code, and Alphabet now. These techs have just gotten substantially cheaper. We can do a Masonry <---> BW trade, but I hold off on it, since I want to try to make sure we do get IW first.

Moscow builds a scout and is set to build another.

3600BC (9): Our scout in the south meets up with an Indian warrior-settler pair who are REALLY near Moscow. India has Alphabet, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial. Tech brokering opportunity here: I trade Pottery + 5 gold for CB with India. Then send Pottery + CB to France for WC and Masonry. Then Ghandi gives us Alphabet + 15 gold for Masonry. Things are looking smooth on the tech front!

3550BC (10): We run into the Japanese up near Rome. They have the Wheel, and we have BW, Masonry, Alpha, Pottery, and WC. Toku is talking expensive for The Wheel though, he gets Masonry, Alphabet, and WC for it. I figure if we don't do it now, someone else will trade him for it.

We have a horse right next to Moscow. No-one else can afford to give us anything good for The Wheel (15 gold from France was the best offer).

3500BC (11): An Indian warrior approaches Moscow in a way I must admit I don't like the look of.

We pop a deserted goody hut.

3450BC (12): Ok, I'm scared of this Indian warrior. Moscow scout production changed to warrior. He'll arrive next turn, which is the same turn the Indian warrior will arrive next to Moscow - if that's where he's headed. Ghandi's settler also looks set to claim some real fertile land near Moscow.

3400BC (13): India founds a city real close to us, but their warrior turns back. Moscow builds a warrior and is set to build a granary. St Petersburg is changed from warrior to scout.

We meet the Egyptians. They have Mysticism, but are talking expensive prices for it. The game is also up as far as BW goes, several other civs have it now. We trade Cleo Alphabet and The Wheel for Mysticism. Then we send Mysticism and Pottery to Japan for a worker + 10 gold. They had three workers to trade this turn, but that's all I could get off them. (Worker prices are pretty fair these days).

I also send The Wheel to France for 15 gold.

3350BC (14): blah.

3300BC (15): St Petersburg builds a scout. Sent north-east. That's where France is apparently.

3250BC (16): Luxury rate had to be turned up for St Petersburg's sake.

3200BC (17): We sent Mysticism to France in exchange for a worker.

3150BC (18): Moscow grows to size 3. France just got Horseback Riding. We don't have anything to trade them for it.

3100BC (19): A barbarian warrior approaches St Petersburg. We don't have any defenses, and so I decide to whip a spearman.

3050BC (20): St Peters builds a spearman. Set to build a worker.

France are the only ones who have a tech up on us - HBR. We're probably not going to get IW before anyone else. However, brokering has gone well. Next I suggest we go for Mathematics, since it's one of the least-aimed-for techs by the AI.

The Roster:

Sirp <--- Just Played
Arizona_Steve <--- UP NOW
T-Hawk <--- On Deck
LKendter
Speaker

-Sirp.

The Game

(the upload server wasn't working, so this is on my personal webspace, and may be removed later)
 
Yikes. This is gonna be a tough one, given how little land we're going to be able to grab. And that's a LOT of neighbors! At least our biggest neighbor is always-pathetic Rome; this game might end up looking like the twin of LK41. :)

St. Petersburg is a great help, although it's in what can hardly be called the best location. :) I think the first settler should go 3 tiles N from Moscow; in that spot, it'll have access to the cattle right away, and it will have a second 2-food square via border fill-in with St. Pete, until a worker or two can clear some more squares (is that forest or jungle? I can't tell; that's why I use the Snoopy graphics mods :) ) Irrigating that cattle should be the original worker's next endeavour; Moscow doesn't need more than 4-5 improved tiles while building settlers.

I would've stuck to the minimum research on Iron Working; I'd be astounded if we were able to accumulate the beakers for the tech in less than 40 turns. Techs are way expensive on Deity, and generating a lot of beakers in the early going is very difficult with the unimproved tiles and lux taxes. I'd recommend still switching back to the minimum now.

And that's still a LOT of neighbors! There must be a TON of vacant land somewhere on the map...
 
Yeah I agree with perhaps switching to the minimum now. I must admit I really don't know what I'm doing with calculating how long a tech is going to take early on Deity.

Indeed it's going to be mighty tough. Large pangea could have made it more of a builder's game, but I wanted something a little more in between. I'm sure we can all hold our own in a fight if it gets tough :)

Now, I have to go read up on this LK41 game you keep talking about :)

-Sirp.
 
Calculating exact beaker costs from scratch is very difficult, with so many multiplicative factors being applied.

That said, the techs do have a constant price relationship with each other. Often you can look at the time to research another tech and pretty well gauge whether you can get yours within 40 turns. I downloaded the save to have a look. Writing costs slightly more than Iron Working (the ratio is 8 to 6), and we couldn't make Writing in less than 40 at 100% science, so IW won't happen at a more realistic 70%.

Actually, there's also a simpler way. :) I configured Moscow for max commerce (working three water tiles), set the slider to 100%, and now it shows 15 turns at 11 beakers/turn. Therefore, we need ~165 more beakers for the tech; we'd need to average 8-9 beakers per turn to get it sooner than minimum. We're making 5 beakers now, and that won't increase much since most of what Moscow generates will have to go to lux tax. Given all that, I think switching to the minimum should be our choice.

BTW, the savegame has luxuries at 30%; 20% suffices at the moment since St. Pete doesn't need any lux with its MP garrison.

Also, all those workers don't need to be building a road. One worker and one slave can complete a road in two turns; the second slave doesn't help anything. It doesn't matter in this case since the second slave couldn't do anything useful from this point (it can't reach the next project, the horses tile, any sooner if it moves this turn), but just something to keep in mind.

Oh, and the tiles around that cattle are indeed forests, so get a city going there and some workers clearing the forests to build it a granary. (This won't happen within Steve's 10 turns but will on mine.)

- T-hawk the Micromanaging Slavedriver :whipped:
 
I didn't realize you selected Pangea. This is going to make it even tougher to test the research theory. I have found the very early contact greatly accelerates the tech pace. In addition, the odds of first contact slingshot are much less. Take a look at LK38 and see what I gained when I made first contact with Persia. It was a huge haul including republic ~25 turns earlier then I expected.

On the currency vs. republic debate:
We will have to wait to that moment, however first to Monotheism @ monopoly could have large trading value.

I agree the location of St. Petersburg isn't great, however as crammed as we are I will take it. We will be lucky to squeeze 5 cities from this crowed mess. I hope we can at least get the cow between St. Pet and Moscow.

========================

Rules question:

I doubt will happen, but can we trade a map for tech?

========================

@Sirp - I am curious, why Iron working? The AI tends to go for that tech quickly.
 
[lurking] I maybe way off base here but going for IW first should almost guarantee you a trade opprotunity. Being the only civ to have BW at the onset you have the best chances of getting there first and because the AI does value it maybe you can pull in Writing for it. Not being at all familiar with Diety though I am not sure how quickly the AI will move on IW once BW is traded around. If they are about to get it theselve the value may be less then expected.
[/lurking]

Good luck,

This will be an interesting variant to watch and learn from ;).

Hotrod
 
Ah, so this is where LK41 players go when they die :)

I might have joined but should really stagger my SG's better anyway. LK41 and GM1 tracked each other strongly (GM1 will finish this week), and I had a couple of overlapping turns. Plus, I have my first solo AW game going on, am doing pretty well, and am excited to push forward with it after being away. In that game it was useful to research IW at minimum, then when it came in I had the gold to upgrade a few warriors right away (I wasn't making any headway with warriors vs. NM :p ).
 
LK: Yeah I know Pangea will be tough, but I didn't intend it to be an easy game :)

I guess there could be some argument for having made this more of a 'builder' game with more space, but I went for more of a mixed approach, where we can choose our peace/war approach. It would only take one successful war to give us a decent amount of room though.

The reason I went for IW first was,

- we are the only scientific civilization, thus the only civilization that starts with Bronze Working. My aim was to not trade BW, and thus give us a big-as-possible advantage in researching IW.
- it was the only second-level technology we could research from the start of the game, and I didn't want to research a first-level tech, because as happened, we got all those by trade very quickly.

It was a mistake to try to go the max-science route. We probably won't get it first, but we still may get it soon enough to make some good trades, depending on how much contact the AIs have with each other.

The only concern I have with Monotheism is if we *don't* get it first (i.e. we're so behind by that stage that others have researched it from scratch). In that case we'd be in *real* trouble :)
 
Ahh... the joys of real life.

We had company round last night, and top of the list of "no no's" is the crime of "being antisocial", that is, playing Civ. I'm sure those of you that have wives or girlfriends will understand.

I have told "her Majesty" that I will be playing Civ tonight :D
 
(0) 3050BC
Science dropped to 20% to continue research on Iron Working @ minimum science.
Luxuries dropped to 20%
Tech situation:
Egypt - Equal in tech.
Japan - Equal in tech.
India - Lacks The Wheel.
France - Has Horseback Riding.
Rome - Lacks Pottery, The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial.
Our spearman at St Petersburg fends off a barb warrior, and the people expand the palace.

(1) 3000BC
Begin roading the horses, using one native and one slave worker, this should take two turns. The other slave is sent to chop a forest, which will speed up our next settler once the granary is completed.

(2) 2950BC
(3) 2900BC
Our scout pops another goody hut, and gets another free village. Kiev is not in a good location, a free settler would've been far better.
Luxuries to 30% as Moscow gorws to size 4.
Horsie road completes at Moscow.

(4) 2850BC
(5) 2800BC
Moscow builds granary, starts settler.
Japan begins the Oracle.

(6) 2750BC
(7) 2710BC
It looks like the Romans have managed to research pottery.

(8) 2670BC
The French have researched Writing. But what's this? They don't have contact with India?
I note that the rules allow trade of contacts in exchange for techs, however the French have a monopoly on TWO techs, and will not trade either.
I'm forced to wait until either of the techs are passed around.

(9) 2630BC
This is not good. Last turn the French researched Writing, the only new tech that has thus far appeared.
Now take a look at the tech situation.
France - Has Iron Working, Horseback Riding and Writing.
Rome - Has Iron Working, lacks The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial.
India - Has Iron Working, lacks The Wheel - I note that they do have a worker on offer.
Japan - Has Iron Working, Horseback Riding and Writing.
Egypt - Has Iron Working and Writing.
So based on these facts I make the following trades;
Iron working + 25 gold from Rome for The Wheel.
I am unable to trade for Horseback Riding or Writing, as I have no tech to offer up in return.
Minimum science research started on Mathematics, as this is not high on the AI priority list.
Science dropped to 10%.

(10) 2590BC
Two French warriors move next to St Petersburg.

Tech situation is as mentioned in turn 9, although I managed to trade for Iron Working.
I hope for the next player's sake that the French aren't about to sneak-attack us.
For Kiev - might want to give some consideration to settler-abandoning the city and moving it to a better place.

Here's the save: SP5 - 2950BC
 
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