Term 3 Judiciary: The more laws, the less justice

Peri

Peri

Vote early and vote often
Joined
Aug 31, 2002
Messages
3,261
Welcome to the Judicial Thread.

Demogame Rules
Term 2 Thread

The authority and role of this branch of government is enshrined in Article C.3 of the Constitution.

3. The Judicial Branch will be formed of three Leaders and is tasked with verifying legality of legislation, interpreting rules, and determining when violations occur. Each also has a specific area of additional responsibility.

a. The Chief Justice is the overall head of the Judiciary and can fill in for either lower position. The Chief Justice is responsible for maintaining the legal books of the country and the mechanics of Judicial Procedure.

b. The Judge Advocate functions in a role of prosecution and attorney to the state when allegations of rule breaking have been made.

c. The Public Defendant functions in the role of defence for any and all accused citizens
Click to expand...

This Term the Fanatican Judiciary consists of:
Chief Justice: Peri
Judge Advocate: Civanator
Public Defender: Vander

I am pleased to welcome Civanator, our new Judge Advocate and Vander, our new Public Defender to the Judiciary. I look forward to serving with you.

All citizens are welcome to discuss any aspect of the Constitution or raise any query they have regarding the working of the Judiciary
 
I am glad to have a fourth term on the PD bench with a highly competent CJ like Peri. I hope this is as good, if not better, than last term, which was my favorite in the Judiciary so far. Congratulations on your victory, Peri! :)
 
Congratulations to the both of you and welcome back.

Will the Honorable Chief Justice Peri still be making shop calls to the Gorina branch of Peri and Hutz? :D We've moved your things to the appropriate office in the Judicial Building. Everythings ready to go. :goodjob:

Cyc
Mayor of Gorina
 
I would like to File for a PI for Donsig. First le, He did not follow the instructions that were given to him by the FA and the Military Department. Zarn nor the Citizens of Fanatica have Authorized anything nor did General Falcon02 Drew up the plans.

Here is the Evidence that I am putting forward
Code: 
[21:46] <@donsig> We declared war
[21:46] <+DX_Zoi> what turn are we on?
[21:46] <@donsig> turn 3
[21:46] <+Noldodan> ?
[21:46] <+DX_Zoi> and why did we declare war?
[21:46] <+Bootstoots> if i weren't PD, id file a PI
[21:46] <@Mara_Jade> DZ!!!
[21:46] <+Noldodan> when did we declare war?
[21:46] <+cyc> hey DZ
[21:46] <+Bootstoots> did you have the citizen's support?
[21:46] <+DX_Zoi> and is the chat still going on?
[21:46] <+RikMeleet> few seconds ago
[21:46] <+DX_Zoi> hello Cyc  
[21:46] <+cyc> the hippie is sad...
[21:46] <@Mara_Jade> Whoh
[21:47] <@Mara_Jade> Text over flow
[21:47] <+Bootstoots> why was war declared?
[21:47] <+Bootstoots> and what authority did you have to do so, donsig?
[21:47] <+DX_Zoi> I can deal with a war, as llong as it doesnt mirror our last fiasco
[21:47] <+Zarn> I can change you mind , anarchy. Want me to try?
[21:47] <+Fionn696> lag city
[21:47] <+DX_Zoi> what, CG?
[21:47] <@donsig> Chalco, is no more.  Causualties: two veteran legions
[21:47] <@Mara_Jade> Hola DZ :)
[21:47] <+Peri> hurrraahhh
[21:47] <+anarchy> grrr
[21:47] <@Mara_Jade> Is there anyone in the Judicary branch?
[21:47] <+Fionn696> settle that area as fast as possible!
[21:47] <+DX_Zoi> is "the line" in place yet?
[21:47] <+Noldodan> BAH!
[21:47] <+anarchy> Why did we go to war? You had no backing :p
[21:47] <+Curufinwe> niec to see you DZ
[21:47] <+Bootstoots> yes, i am
[21:47] <+DX_Zoi> Boots is
[21:48] <+DX_Zoi> and Peri
[21:48] <+Peri> and me too
[21:48] * @Mara_Jade takes Boots into her office
[21:48] <+cyc> not yet DZ
[21:48] <+DX_Zoi> hi Curu, nice to see you as well
[21:48] <@Mara_Jade> Its nice to see you DZ :)
[21:48] <+Fionn696> no JA yet
[21:48] <+DX_Zoi> we should get that in place and end this war once we have it secured
[21:48] <+Bootstoots> Peri, PCMW
[21:49] <@donsig> Fionn, can I upgrade the three warriors now?
[21:49] <+DX_Zoi> why is everyone so glad to see me?  
[21:49] <+Fionn696> yup
[21:49] <@donsig> thanks
[21:49] <+cyc> dunno
[21:49] <+Curufinwe> you're just an overall nice guy DZ
[21:49] <+DX_Zoi> thanks
[21:49] <+Curufinwe> any coments to me, direct through CG
[21:49] <+Curufinwe> Ii'm busy now
[21:50] <+cyc> they must want something DZ
[21:50] <@donsig> ok, is Zarn here?
[21:50] <@Mara_Jade> yes he is
[21:50] <+Peri> May I ask how did we get into this new war?
[21:50] <+DX_Zoi> I don't know what............  o_O
[21:50] <+cyc> j/k
[21:50] <+Fionn696> they irked the domestic deputy ;)
[21:50] <+DX_Zoi> we declared it, I gather
[21:50] <+Peri> was there a citizen vote?
[21:50] <+DX_Zoi> Hey Peri, Pm sent
[21:51] * +RikMeleet is going to sleep
[21:51] <+cyc> yes, donsig went out on a limb and declared
[21:51] <+Peri> the text moved too fast for me to read it all
[21:51] <+DX_Zoi> was there a citizen vote?
[21:51] <+cyc> g'night RM
[21:51] <+Peri> thanks dz 
[21:51] <+Bootstoots> was there FA approval?
[21:51] <+DX_Zoi> sweet dreams, Rik  :D
[21:51] <+anarchy> Donsig went dictator
[21:51] <+RikMeleet> C U all later
[21:51] <+DX_Zoi> thank you
[21:51] *** RikMeleet has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[21:52] <+Bootstoots> (zarn) did donsig have your approval?

- Minutes later due to Disconnect - 

21:53] <+Bootstoots> is someone going to file a PI against donsig?
[21:53] <@donsig> Babylon and China are building the great wall
[21:53] <+cyc> not me.
[21:53] <+Zarn> k back
[21:53] <+Zarn> what happened
[21:53] <+Noldodan> i don't plan on doing so
[21:53] <@Mara_Jade> Zarn - War has been declared
[21:53] <+DX_Zoi> we are at war with the Aztecs
[21:53] <+Zarn> k
[21:53] <+cyc> not for this anyways
[21:53] <@donsig> we've got an escorted Greek settler 3 tiles NW of Memphis
[21:54] <+cyc> he may piss me off later...
[21:54] <+DX_Zoi> did you ok this, Zarn?
[21:54] <+cyc> j/k donsig
[21:54] <+BlueStrider> Cyc: NRK is banned from CFC and is not a Demogame Citizen... he should have no say in the demogame at all
[21:54] <+Zarn> I am personally fine with it, but I don't know about other citizens.
[21:54] <+cyc> he is not bothering me
[21:54] <+DX_Zoi> Note to President donsig:  Take goood care of Gorina.....  ;D
[21:54] <@Mara_Jade> There should have been a discussion about this
[21:54] <+BlueStrider> If he joins with one of those DL's he has... I'll be fine with it 
[21:55] <+anarchy> anarchy IS a DG citizen and may not be banned for long :p
[21:55] <+Bootstoots> at the very least
[21:55] <+Peri> would anyone have voted against war?
[21:55] <+Curufinwe> China's building te Great Wall, what an absurd thought, only in CivIII
[21:55] <+Bootstoots> i would have
[21:55] <@Mara_Jade> Nrk- may I see the papers
[21:55] <@donsig> Captured the other Aztec settler - it is now two slaves for us
[21:55] <+anarchy> i left them in my other jacket :mischief:
[21:55] <+Bootstoots> as would cyc, curu, nold, and others
[21:55] <+cyc> at least 3 of us were against it maybe 4
[21:55] <+DX_Zoi> I would not have, but if it goes any further than retaking our land, I will take issue
[21:55] <+Noldodan> i would have voted against, but it's okay with me that donsig did it
[21:56] <@Mara_Jade> o_O
[21:56] <+Noldodan> i don't really mind
[21:56] <+Bootstoots> unilaterally?
[21:56] <@Mara_Jade> We should have voted about this War
[21:56] <@Mara_Jade> We should have discussions about it first
[21:56] <+Bootstoots> against an article of the constitution?
[21:56] <+cyc> let's just move on
[21:56] <+Noldodan> meh
[21:56] <+DX_Zoi> I don't like the fact that there was no citizen poll, if that was the case
[21:56] <@Mara_Jade> same here DZ
[21:56] <+Bootstoots> not even a discussion
[21:56] <+DX_Zoi> we are dealing with a more lenient ruleset, though
[21:56] <+anarchy> Impeachent
[21:56] <+Noldodan> we had a discussion
[21:56] <+Zarn> I wanted a vote after this chat to see if a war should be done. There was a discussion about the Aztecs settlements and possible war in the citizen's forum
[21:56] * @Mara_Jade plops a Peach on Nrk
[21:57] <+anarchy> :p
[21:57] <+Noldodan> it just wasn't... formalized
[21:57] <+Peri> dz new pm
[21:57] <+DX_Zoi> what was the discussion?
[21:57] <+cyc> you in deep creek now donsig :D
[21:57] <@Mara_Jade> 6Laugh 6Out 6Loud
[21:57] <@donsig> been there before
[21:57] <+Noldodan> ummm... the war is already started
[21:57] <+DX_Zoi> "Hey, guys.....I declared war on the Aztecs.  Discuss."
[21:57] <@Mara_Jade> Battle Plans were not drawn up
[21:57] <+Noldodan> good way to start the term!
[21:57] <+Fionn696> wouldnt be a donsig presidential term without at least one PI ;)
[21:57] * @Mara_Jade shakes her head
[21:57] <@donsig> War is not in FA's jurisdiction
[21:57] <+Noldodan> uh oh...
[21:57] <+Zarn> :LOL:
[21:57] <@Mara_Jade> I thought war is on the grounds of the FA
[21:57] <+Noldodan> PI!  RUNNNNN!
[21:58] <@Mara_Jade> Boots, Peri - I have an assignment for you
[21:58] <+Curufinwe> would war be military and foreign?
[21:58] <+DX_Zoi> It certainly is......dealing with other nations is the primary focus of FA
[21:58] <+Curufinwe> and domestic perhaps....
[21:58] <+Curufinwe> trade
[21:58] <+Curufinwe> definitely trade
[21:58] <+Zarn> I don't think the military authorized it, either. Did it?
[21:58] <+DX_Zoi> Solely FA
[21:59] <+cyc> FA was absent
[21:59] <@Mara_Jade> Zarn - The Military... ...let me check
[21:59] <@donsig> war is only mentioned in the constitution in article H.1.a
[21:59] <+DX_Zoi> Well, this will at least spice up the forums.....I should have thought of this
[21:59] <+cyc> hehehe
[21:59] <+Zarn> I was absent when CYC?
[21:59] <+Fionn696> lol@dz
[21:59] <+Peri> if war is the will of the people then there is no foul
[21:59] <+cyc> i thought? were you here?
[21:59] <+Noldodan> hmmm...
[22:00] <+Noldodan> but, if there is no PI, there is no foul
[22:00] *** Ehecatl_Atzin (Ehecatl@3d344119.14012855.1fbd6a28.1e706c24X) 4[joined] #demogame.
[22:00] *** Mara_Jade 4[voices]
[22:00] <@Mara_Jade> EA!!!!

-{added Marker}-

One is his refusal to listen to the orders of the Foreign Affairs department during the chat. Despite the fact that Zarn expressly forbode the signing of a treaty with Greece, donsig signed it anyway. Here is a segment of the chat log. Important phrases are in bold :


Code: 
[23:36] <@donsig> I offered WM, currency, 154g and 40gpt and Alex won't bite
[23:36] <@donsig> that's all we can muster
[23:36] <+cyc> let's go to Monarchy then
[23:36] <@donsig> unless we sell currency to others cheap
[23:36] <+cyc> no way. we still won't have enough
[23:37] <+Fionn696> manarchy is good enough for now
[23:37] <+Noldodan> donsig: the greeks are notoriously hard bargainers
[23:37] <@donsig> Alex will fight Abe for 3gpt
[23:37] <+cyc> we'll get screwed
[23:37] <+Noldodan> lol
[23:37] <+cyc> that sounds good
[23:37] <+cyc> an ally for 3gpt
[23:37] <+Noldodan> well, seeing as you're doing everything ELSE without hitting the forums, why not this? Full steam ahead!
[b][23:37] <@donsig> Zarn, would you care to rubber stamp this treaty?[/b]
[23:38] <+Bootstoots> how many turns are we playing?
[b][23:38] <+Zarn> donsig I won't sign. I want to discuss it in the forums. [/b]
[23:39] <+Fionn696> fine by me
[23:39] <+Fionn696> cheap cannon fodder hehe
[23:39] <+Fionn696> assuming we had cannons
[23:39] <+Fionn696> but since we dont spear and sword fodder
[b][23:39] <@donsig> silence from FA[/b]
[23:39] <+cyc> it's a good deal Zarn
[b][23:39] <@donsig> treaty will be signed[/b]

Also, I would like to present this, which occured when donsig continued the chat despite a clear majority of the citizenry there being opposed:

Code: 
[b][23:00] <+Noldodan> CITIZEN VOTE: Stop the chat? Vote yes, no or abstain.[/b]
[23:00] <@Mara_Jade> Curu - Donsig is ignoring the Will of the People
[23:00] <@Octavian_X> Why am I needed?
[b][23:00] <+Curufinwe> Yes
[23:00] <+Noldodan> Vote=YES
[23:00] <+Bootstoots> yes
[23:00] <+BlueStrider> yes
[23:00] <@Mara_Jade> Vote = Yes, Right now 
[23:00] <+Zarn> yes[/b]
[23:00] <+cyc> trade cleo some dyes
[b][23:00] <+Curufinwe> 4/17 so far[/b]
[23:00] <+Fionn696> only the DP can call for a citizens vote if im not mistaken
[23:00] <+Bootstoots> 4/15
[23:00] <@Mara_Jade> dang
[23:00] <@Octavian_X> What's she offer?
[23:00] <+Curufinwe> 6/17
[23:01] <+BlueStrider> 4/14
[23:01] <+BlueStrider> 6/14
[23:01] <+Bootstoots> 4/15 two bots
[23:01] <+cyc> dunno yet
[23:01] <+Noldodan> well, joeb, iris mafioso and ehecatl are out
[23:01] <+Curufinwe> Fionn, but elected officials ahve to act out of the will of the people
[23:01] <+BlueStrider> Two ehecatls to 
[23:01] <+Bootstoots> 6/14 my bad
[23:01] <+Noldodan> and padma's not here
[23:01] <@Mara_Jade> Padma is here
[23:01] <@Mara_Jade> Look to your Right
[23:01] <+Noldodan> so 6/13
[23:01] <@Octavian_X> Please! Stop this at once!
[23:01] <+Fionn696> but a citizen cannot call for a vote, only the president/DP
[23:01] <+Bootstoots> there is no rule on that
[23:01] <@Octavian_X> Stick to the TC
[23:01] <+Curufinwe> can a leader of a department?
[23:01] <+Noldodan> he hasn;t spoken for 2.5 hours!
[23:01] <+Bootstoots> stop it at once
* Retrieving #Demogame info...
[23:02] <+Noldodan> 7/13...
[23:02] <+Noldodan> Peri?
[23:02] <+Bootstoots> it passes
[23:02] <+Curufinwe> that is majority, though I'd prefer it larger
[23:02] <+Ehecatl> vote -- YES
[23:02] <+BlueStrider> Fionn: That may be true, but it shows in the log and proves that a clear majority of the citizenry wanted the chat stopped
[23:02] <+Fionn696> if ive read the constitution correct, not even a department leader can call for a vote, just the DP/president
[23:02] <+Curufinwe> who's the person here who can interpret the rules?
[23:02] <+Bootstoots> Peri - let him do it
[23:02] <@donsig> ok, we are going to build two canal cities
[23:02] <+Noldodan> 8/13
[23:02] <@donsig> names?
[23:02] <@Octavian_X> the game goes as long as donsig wants.
[23:03] <+Noldodan> peri: you voting?
[23:03] <@Octavian_X> Canal city one and two...
[23:03] <+Peri> what is going on now i was poposting in the forum?
[23:03] <+cyc> name my Palatine
[23:03] <+Peri> please fill me in
[23:03] *** Ehecatl_Atzin has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
[23:03] <+Fionn696> nice city name cyc
[23:03] <+Noldodan> Peri: should we stop the chat?
[23:03] <+cyc> ty
[23:03] <+Noldodan> that is the issue at hand
[23:03] <@donsig> cyc - do you want the north or south canal city?
[23:03] <+cyc> North
[23:03] <+Peri> well i think that under the circumstances it would be advisable but only the dp can do that
[23:03] <@donsig> ok
[23:04] <+Fionn696> the discussion for ending that chat has to stop, only donsig can stop it and he isnt going to
[23:04] <+Noldodan> is that a yes?
[23:04] <+Peri> if has citizen vote has been called then i vote yes to stop it
[23:04] <+Noldodan> okay
[23:04] <@donsig> Palatine has been founded
[23:04] <+Fionn696> alert me if we need anything domestic discussed
[b][23:05] <+Noldodan> 9/13 for stopping the chat[/b]

Here is the part of the Consitution that was violated
Code: 
 1. The Executive Branch is headed by the President, the overall 
      Leader of the land, and shall include a Council of Leaders, each of 
      whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of 
      the country. Each of these Leaders will be generally responsible for 
      the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III 
      game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name.

         a. The President shall be the designated player of the game. 
            The President is responsible for following the legal 
            instructions of all Leaders during play of the game.
Code: 
G. Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

I would like to point out that Zarn, our FA, was present at the whole Fiasco.
 
A Public Investigation (PI) has been requested into the events articulated in the previous post.

In the interests of justice and fair play, I, acting as Chief Justice, shall delay formal proceedings until the new Judge Advocate has been elected and sworn in.
When we have a new Judge Advocate I shall post procedural instructions.
 
I will stand down as PD, take a leave of absence for the PD post only, and transfer power to Peri. I am too opinionated to continue this objectively.
 
I think that if it is necessary to voice an opinion on this matter it should be done in a citizen discussion thread in the citizen forum rather than here. Thankyou. :)
 
Peri, it can't be done in the appropriate forum until the discussion phase begins, which is stalled by the lack of the JA. Therefore, we must post here.
 
I would think the CJ at this point would stop all discussion on the matter until such time when a JA can open proceedings.
 
No discussion whatsoever on this matter is best. However there is to be no formal discussion of this matter in this thread at the moment. Informal comments can't be prevented and it is best they are kept separate from the official thread.
 
I will not be able to carry out my function as PD due to my bias in this PI. I will transfer power to the CJ and he may opt to let Donsig choose his own council for the trial. If the people wish for me to resign as PD due to my inability to perform my functions, I will do so.
 
Actually, there should just be PI's filed on all elected officials who voluntarily bail out of their jobs for immature, irresponsible reasons. What makes you think what you're doing is any better than what you're accusing donsig of doing? We are all just going from the frying pan to the fire. This is senseless.
 
Originally posted by Bootstoots
I will not be able to carry out my function as PD due to my bias in this PI. I will transfer power to the CJ and he may opt to let Donsig choose his own council for the trial. If the people wish for me to resign as PD due to my inability to perform my functions, I will do so.
Click to expand...
If you don't consider yourself able to perform your duties as PD regardless of your personal views on the issue at hand, why on earth did you run for the position?
 
As it appears that our Cultural Leader and Governor will be returning to their jobs, I will tone down my statement above. I'm glad to see this silliness end. We have work to do.
 
Cyc, I believe I told you that I'd have that position on this to start off, and then change to whatever the citizenry chose? I hardly see that following the laws and not allowing my opinions to override my resonsibility is immature. Please cease insulting me, I'm acting properly and maturely.
 
Just so you know, curu, I wasn't singling anyone, especially you, out of the monstrosity. My comment basically reflected the entire mutiny and all its fingers that go every which way. It is these fingers that will entangle the Demogame and strangle it.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
As it appears that our Cultural Leader and Governor will be returning to their jobs, I will tone down my statement above. I'm glad to see this silliness end. We have work to do.
Click to expand...

and

Originally posted by Cyc
Actually, there should just be PI's filed on all elected officials who voluntarily bail out of their jobs for immature, irresponsible reasons. What makes you think what you're doing is any better than what you're accusing donsig of doing? We are all just going from the frying pan to the fire. This is senseless.
Click to expand...

I'd like to point out that you first of all called me immature and irresponsible, despite my following the constitution and changing my views becuase of what the citizens want, again according to the constitution. And calling what I did senseless as well, as I'm an actor in the championing of reform. Then you said that what I had done was "silliness." I'd like to request that you rethink what you said. And yes we do have work to do cyc, we must repair the demogame, vote for a JA, repair a constitution, and see if the TC's must halt or go on. Not to mention other duties. I seek to do all of those. I thank you Cyc, for you trying to restore order, but I believe that you may need to rethink how you're doing it. I apologize if I said anything offensive in that, as that was not my goal. I seek to repair things, not entangle and strangle the demogame.
 
Hey. Please can we not turn this into a discussion thread on this particular issue.
This whole matter needs to be dealt with in the proper manner.
I must respectfully insist that all discussion on this issue cease. I have asked the mods to close the opinion thread in the citizen forum because I believe that everyone has had a chance to vent and if left open will be contrary to good justice. I appreciate that many of you have a strong opinion on this but I believe that continued recrimination will only further damage this demogame.
I hope you all will support me in this.
 
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