Conjoined Twins Die After Separation

Dralix

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I am hoping that Sean would like to explain this post from another thread

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
CBC has it front page, topped only by that horrible story of the conjoined twins' torturous murder.

I read the article, and found nothing about a torturous murder. Only about a risky procedure (they were told 50/50 chance of survival) and two twins who decided that the risk was worth it.

Any comments?

EDIT: I did not start this thread as an attempt to flame Sean, but only hoping that he would explain his comment without my jacking the other thread.
 
Saying it is murder is nonsense imho. Fits in a conservative mind I guess.

But I do have a comment. Was it a 50/50 chance? As this procedure was unique iirc, there is no way to tell. So telling they have a 50% chance of survival maybe was wrong.
 
I agree (with the post before me). The fact, that both twins had given their consent and realized the risks of such an operation, makes it legal all the way, and not reasonable at all to call it "murder".
 
Originally posted by Speaker
I think its absurd that doctors who perform surgeries to save lives are criticized like this. Where would we be without our doctors? They deserve a lot more respect than simply being called Dr. So-And-So instead of Mr. So-And-So.

One of the more complicated ethical issues is whether a doctor should just safe lives, or also keep in mind the quality of life.

What if a woman dies during a boob enlargement surgery? Maybe not the perfect example, but It hink you get my point.

The surgery on the Iranian girls is a tough one! Was the risk worth the possible improvement of the quality of life? I don't think I can judge on it.

I must say that I think the wish of the patient, in general, is more important than the ethical values of the doctor.
 
I think you present an excellent point Stapel. Cosmetic surgery is one thing, but separating conjoined twins is, in my opinion, a totally different thing. I hope I don't sound way out of line here, but imagine being attached at the head with your brother or sister for 30 years--or 50 years--or 70 years. That goes beyond quality of life I think. Ethical values are definitely a hazy line though.
 
Originally posted by Stapel
Saying it is murder is nonsense imho. Fits in a conservative mind I guess.

Sean is about as liberal as you can get.

This is really sad, but holding the doctors responsible is pretty low. The girls knew the risks and decided to go ahead with it.
 
A tragedy, but not a murder, since both consented.

Leads me to wonder though -- has there ever been a case where one twin wanted a risky separation procedure and the other didn't? I assume such a case would be resolved in favor of the one that didn't.

I saw a pair of sisters joined at the head on Sally Jesse Raphael's show once. They seemed to find the situation much more liveable than I would have thought.
 
Originally posted by thestonesfan
I actually thought they'd make it.

So did I. It was very sad.

But I wonder if that was realistic.

I suspect that sometimes only
one twin can survive, but no one
wants to make that cruel decision.
 
I was really hoping they would make it - this is awful. Those poor girls - - -
 
Originally posted by Dralix
I am hoping that Sean would like to explain...

I hadn't looked into this story before it closed.:( I wanted to know what went wrong, and found many answers.

There has never been a successful separation of adult twins sharing a single skull cavity. Even with resilient newborns, it's dicey, usually estimated at "50/50" survival, not to mention developmental impairment due to brain damage. Giving these older women that "50/50" seems optimistic!

The general assumption was that two separate faces and two distinct personalities must mean two separately functioning brains. The twins believed that, and it's certainly the easiest thing to believe. Prior to this operation, the surgeons convinced themselves that they only needed to help those two separate brains apart.

This was a grand spotlight event, with 128 doctors and assistants eager to lend a hand. I think the sheer numbers of people involved and interested in this operation created a group psychology. It is very difficult to stop the determination of a large group, where a small team that feels independent might pull out of and patch up an effort that clearly isn't working.

"The surgeons encountered unexpected obstacles throughout the procedure. The removal of the strip of bone joining their skulls took longer than expected because the bone was thicker and denser than anticipated."

:rolleyes: That doesn't inspire confidence. I think most posters on this forum would have the common sense to find out the thickness and density of something before planning to cut it. A few primitive X-rays would have shown both.

Nothing so critical about sawing bone, though. Go on. The next step was assumed to be the big challenge. Surgeons separated the major shared vein in the twins' brain(s). Seemed to go all right.*

"Thirty-two hours into the procedure, surgeons had stopped the operation and considered calling it off -- leaving the twins joined -- because blood wasn't flowing properly through a finger-thick vein they had stitched to Ladan's brain to compensate for the coming loss of a shared vein that drained blood to their hearts."

"As well, the twins' brains had adhered to each other after 28 years of growing in their conjoined skull." That's one way of saying it, if we insist on the plural.

"One surgeon said the operating team knew Monday night that the final stage would be ''very, very risky.'' He said surgeons asked again what the wishes of the twins were -- and were told that they had wanted to be separated ''under all circumstances.''

Doctors went ahead and completed the operation -- but they weren't able to control the bleeding afterward. Both women died, within 90 minutes of each other. They were still under anesthesia."

The separation of the twins' brains took much longer than expected. The "two" brains just wouldn't come apart. Surgeons had to tease and cut, tease and cut, all the way. I think that after doing that for a while, it became clear these "two" women wouldn't have any meaningful life afterwards, and probably wouldn't survive the operation.

"Separated under all circumstances." Well, I shouldn't have called this "murder". It's not that, exactly.

*Few would think it odd the twins were under general anesthetic during their brain surgery, but this struck me as a serious procedural error. The scalp, face, etc, are easily anesthetized locally, and the brain feels no sensation so requires no anesthetic. The reason for keeping people alert and chatting during brain surgery is that it's a direct and foolproof means of knowing when something is wrong. For example, an established safeguard before making an incision is to stimulate or suppress the area first and get feedback from the patient. If one or both of those twins had blacked out or started singing backwards, early on, the operation could have been aborted, and they could be saved without further damage.
 
Sean Lindstrom -
First, they were given a lot of tests. And in your quote regarding the bone, they anticipated it according to the X-ray pictures they had.
You're accusing people of murder. A very serious accusation. But do you have any proof that their conclusions regarding the chances were wrong? Did you look at the X-ray pictures they had, or at the results of any of the dozens of other tests required before such an operation? You claim that they decided that they were ready for surgery because they had two different faces and bodies. Don't you think they had dozens of other sources and tests? You don't know what was known before the operation any more than any of us here, as far as I know, and non of us has seen even a small fraction of the test results they went through.

Also, this surgery was more complex and in more areas than in regular brain surgery, thus the need for an anesthetic.
 
The accusation of murder is not valid judiciary. I think it is not legitimate aswell.
 
@G-Man: None of us know anything about anything. That's what makes these boards, and especially this forum, so interesting. For all you know, Sean, or I, or anyone else posting here could be a brain surgeon who was involved in the surgery. Or we could all be semi-intelligent 20, 30, and 40 somethings with too much time on our hands. Such is the beauty of anonymous forum names. Of course he didn't do any of the things that you rhetorically ask, but who cares? Speculation is so much more fun anyways.
 
Well, I quickly retracted the word "murder".

I think it very plain that this - "torturous" because of the time involved - operation went wrong at every turn, and there were a lot of warnings, prior and during, that it wouldn't succeed. Note that the doctors had to ask the family at least once whether or not to go on. Did they tell the family that the "two" brains would have to be cut apart? I don't know. The decision was to separate them "under all circumstances" - meaning even if it kills them, which it did, and I think the surgeons realized that it would.

The last chance to abort this operation, I think, was when the vein graft proved no good, and wasn't taking blood. That was before cutting the still functional original vein (little harm done yet), so I guess the chance of a return to normal was good at that point.
 
Hi,

I too wouldn't call it murder.

Still you have to bare in mind that experts all over the world
refused to perform this surgery since they considered it to be impossible.
 
Sean,

Thank you for responding. I understand and share many, perhaps all of the issues you raise. When I hear about such a procedure, my first thought is to assume that they will not survive. Cold as that may sound, that is my expectation. Has such a surgery ever been successful?

I do question the expectations of the doctors involved. When everyone else said there was little if any chance, they say 50/50. On the other side though, if the twins were fully informed of the risks, including the fact that other doctors thought that their chances of survival were very low, and they still wished to attempt the procedure, then I would have to respect their choice.
 
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