Always War Monarch Questions

I started an Always War ("AWM") Monarch game last night & have a couple of questions. This is my first Always War game. As a little background, I try to play fairly & don't even use some of the allowed GOTM exploits - no ROP abuse for example. Of course there is no ROP in an AW game . I never reload, etc, etc. etc. My questions are:

1. Is it in the spirit of AW to sign a peace deal as long as you declare war again before you end the turn? This is how I've played so far. Make peace, trade map, techs, etc. then immediatly re-declare war that same turn.

2. Can you trade with a new civ before you ever declare war upon meeting them? I have done this also. Trade techs & maps, & immediately declare war the same turn.

3. I know to stay away from Republic & Democracy all game long due to war weariness, but... do you pretty much go from Despot to Monarchy to Communism. Or do you stay in Monarchy?

4. Do you ever: sue for peace, establish an embassy, redeclare war the same turn so you have an idea who else is at war, or do you just remain in the dark all game with no embassy in other civs?

I must admit this has been alot of fun so far and is far different than my regular style of play. Nice change of pace.

I picked Persia on a regular pang. map with the default # of civs. I'm close to Mongols, Arabia & Babylon. So far I've captured 3 mongol cities with Immortals. I've seen a couple of stacks of Jap archers so far. Can't remember for sure all the other civs I'm against but it includes China, India, Egypt (no attackes from them yet). 8 civc total in the game. So far I think I'm doing okay but since this is my first game I'm not too sure where I need to be at this point.

Thank you for any comments & advice you care to offer regarding Always War. Thanks in Advance! :tank:

1. Is not fine. It is against AW spirit.

2. Is fine.

3. Go to Monarchy and stay there.

4. Never ever declare peace. So no embassies, to lux deals, no gpt deals.

If you post a screenshot and/or save it would be easier to say how you are doing.

Originally posted by betazed
1. Is not fine. It is against AW spirit.

If you post a screenshot and/or save it would be easier to say how you are doing.

Click to expand...

Thanks betazed. Too late for me to undo what's already done for this game but I won't make peace anymore. I guess on the drive home I gotta decide if I should play this one out, or start a new one since I broke a rule in this game. Won't really feel like a win since I cheated. In any event it's been a fun learning experience. I'm at work now, but I'll post a screen shot when I get home if I decide to play this one out.

BTW - I enjoyed your "Revenge of the Chinese - Always War Deity" story. I was just too lazy to re-read & get my answers before I started my game last night. Right now I'm at work killin' time until 5pm.

betazed,

Another couple questions...

I'm re-reading "Revenge of the Chinese - Always War Deity" & notice the Japs found you. Do you send out warriors/scouts in an AW game, or do you let them come & find you? In my game I went looking for goody huts with with 2 warriors. Found no huts but did find trouble (the Mongols).

so...

1. Do you recommend scouting in AW?

2. Do you recommend setting to "No Barbs"?

If you do start another AW game, may I suggest that you pick a civ that has a middle age UU. China is good. Japan is great too.

Although immortals are great for a blitz push in the early ages, what you really need is a unit that you can attack with for a long time. In the early ages you are really defending completely so the huge attack of the immortals is not that important. Immortals will be quickly outdated the moment you reach Chivalry.

OTOH, being Japan would be great. You will not have that crazy and nailbiting anarchy period and you will never need to build muskets, and you can attack all the way till the AI reaches Nationalism.

EDIT:

One more thing,

Persia is also not the ideal civ because it is not militaristic. If you are going to be warring a lot and you are not militaristic then you are not enabling one of your key game strategies.

hence, I have found that Rome, Japan, China are all very good AW civs.

Here is the save. This is my first file to upload so I hope it works. I decided to play out this AWM game since I was having so much fun. I've lost games (2 @ diety) but never quit one. On the positive side my last diety loss was from a space race so I hung in there for a while. Missed the GL in that loss by 3 turns which basically killed my victory chances.

Thank you very much for your respone and suggestions. Next game I'll play Japan (the gov't change is a definite drag!) and follow your guidelines for AW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/handy900_AW_Xerxes_of_the_Persians,_600_AD.zip

(a) There is a lot of unused land. I would pack more cities at closer intervals. You need to use every tile for production.

(b) You are defending a very wide frontline. At Monarch level I am sure you will be able to do so. However, at higher levels you will need to tighten up the line.

(c) Where are the walls in your border cities?

(d) You have only 4 workers? You need at least 12-15 workers for your nine cities. You lack of workers is the reason for all that undeveloped land.

(e) Your source of horses are on your border. They will be cut very soon. Why have you not connected the source of horses that is deep inside your territory?


Anyway, I played just one turn. I am sure when you open the save you will get a pleasant surprise.

Originally posted by betazed
(a) There is a lot of unused land. I would pack more cities at closer intervals. You need to use every tile for production.

I should have thought of that one. It's a pretty obvious strategy.

(b) You are defending a very wide frontline. At Monarch level I am sure you will be able to do so. However, at higher levels you will need to tighten up the line.

Another very constructive criticism.

(c) Where are the walls in your border cities?

I took another peek @ Revenge of the Chinese before I left work & noted all your walls in border cities. I don't usually build them in other "regular" games but I can see the need in this game for sure.

(d) You have only 4 workers? You need at least 12-15 workers for your nine cities. Your lack of workers is the reason for all that undeveloped land.

Poor uneducatded move on my part. In other games I usually build a lot. I was too busy building Immortals (I agree Persia was not the best of choices). I was scared to build workers.

(e) Your source of horses are on your border. They will be cut very soon. Why have you not connected the source of horses that is deep inside your territory?

I did. It's been cut twice. I just reconnected the other one since workers were nearby until I could reconnect the other one. Should fortify on the horses I guess.

Anyway, I played just one turn. I am sure when you open the save you will get a pleasant surprise.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your help. I'm going to open my surprise in the morning as I eat my cherrios & get set for some Saturday gaming. Too tired to play tonight. Just got back from 2 hour soccer practice with 8 yr olds + 5 mile run.

Scratched. Posted in wrong thread

Cyrus was a great surprise. So what do you recommend I do with him? Move the palace to the center of my empire (Pasagarde or Tabriz) OR rush the Heroic Epic (which is a 14 turn build in the capital)?

I'm starting another AWM game as the Japanese on Continents until I hear from you.

Typically, I would build the Sun Tzu. It is a must build and a great help in a AW.

the HE is fine too.

However, I would give Sun Tzu priority because the AI is building it already and you may lose it otherwise.

Will do SZ. Best to keep it away from the other guys. Also nice to avoid building barracks all game long. Thanks.

To Betazazed & Other Always War masters.

I re-read Revenge of the Chinese (“Revenge”), re-read your comments above - or should I say admonitions above – and began a new game. I don’t really know what possessed me to choose the Celts (never played as them before). I followed your lead from Revenge and in restarted looking for a corner position with cows. The double cows with bonus grassland came up on the 3rd restart. An official Bamspeedy Settler Factory was mine!

Up to 500 AD

Met a German scout very quickly and declared war as he would not trade any techs. In this game I’m following the sprit of AW as you set forth – declare war on the same turn I meet a new civ. (after doing any possible trades) & NEVER make peace after that.

As you can see from the screen shot & save, things were going pretty well @ 500AD. So far I’ve only received 2 Great Leaders. First one made an army, second one made the Great Library. Despite lots of elites after building the Heroic Epic, no more leaders yet. I’d really like to get a leader so I could build the FP. I’d hate to build it the slow way.

In this game I’ve tried to follow your advice with these results.
1. I have more workers – 22 so far + slaves. I worked on lands closest to the palace first to improve tiles in the low corruption production. The exception was putting in roads for units to move quickly to the battlefront.
2. I made a denser build, pretty much an ICS with each city getting approximately 3 squares to work. A few exceptions in order to (a) put a city on a hill for defense, (b) put a city next to a rive for growth (c) put a city near luxuries (d) place a city so enemies cannot attack from the hills. I want them on flats as they approach so they get no defensive bonus. Could not help where the German Cities were placed.

If you have the time I’d appreciate answers to these questions, as well as any more constructive criticism you care to offer.

Questions
1. Any ideas on where to try a suicide galley rush would be appreciated. I really need contact to get any benefit from the Great Library. I tried one suicide run so far but found only ocean. I’ve got 2 cities south of the capital building galleys (one a 10 turn & one a 15 turn)
2. Would you circle the continent with the first galley looking for the best suicide rush?
3. Keep tech at 10% or turn to zero? I have research set to 10% since I have the great library, but the tech pace seems really slow. I think Russia may be at war with someone else, yet I have not see elites from them. There may be only 3 civs on this continent & the Germans are all but dead. The Russians do not appear to be too far ahead of me in research since all I see from them are swords. Most regular map continent games place 4 civs on each continent, so I hope they are at war with someone on this continent. Otherwise I’m on a small continent. I’m a little worried since the Great Library only gives a techs if 2 civs already researched it. Since the Germans are basically out of the research business, the GL is no help to me until I make more contacts. I’d hate to make contact with someone who already has replaceable parts since the GL is only good until education is discovered. That would put me in a deep hole.
4. Any comments on City Placement?

5. I’ve just built a city up north @ the choke point & will soon be taking out the Russians.
Should I build more cities or just more Gallic Swords in the capital? I’m building a few 30-turn settlers in distant corrupt cities, but could build them real quick in the Capital. Would you settle the vacant lands south of the choke point now, or just keep kicking Gallic Swords out of the capital,. Destroy the Russians & settle the lands later?

With humble respect I await the input of the Always War Masters.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Brennus_of_the_Celts,_500_AD.SAV

At first sight, your position is excellent. You have a choke point defending your peninsula. What more can you want for a defense?

About the tech pace
Don't worry about the tech pace. In AW the tech pace slows down eventually. At Deity levels I have seen it slow down drastically in the Industrial ages. At lower levels it slows down even sooner. In this game owing to the hammering Bismarck and Cathy has received from you, no wonder they are still in the
ancient ages. I see you are researching Monarchy at 40 turns (inspite of having the GL). In this situation I guess it is ok. If I were you though I would turn it off and save the money. I am sure you will get contacts before you finish monarchy.

Contacts
Your approach to suicide galleys is not accurate. Sure you want to venture them in oceans but first try to see if that is required at all. If I were you I would first try the red route marked. With some luck you may even see off-shores that may not require the use of suicide galleys.



Also remember later the contact the better for you in some ways. Imagine if you wipe out Cathy, build a decent size empire in all the land of this continent and then contact everybody else. If they are in the Industrial ages then you will be instantly propelled to the Industrial ages thanks to the GL. Now that would be nice.

{Hence your worry about finding a civ in RP and hence being in a hole is not accurate. The GL does not work that way. Check out some succession games. I remember one in which the GL gave techs all the way upto Industrialization. The GL will stop giving you tech from the turn after you learn Education. However, in the turn that you learn Education you will continue getting any techs that is known by two other civs. Hence, it is theoritically possible to go from the ancient ages to the space age in one turn using the GL.}

Forbidden palace
I would wipe out Cathy and build the FP in her territory. That would give you another solid core. Hence, no need to build a FP till you have Cathy's territory.

About production
IMO, you have enough military now to stop any of Cathy's designs. However, I see 90% of your cities are building gallic swords. You should switch at least a few (one or two) to start infrastructure also. I find this is always the dicey part of AW - When to build infrastructure. Also, you now have a lot of unsettled land. Your palace being a high food production city should churn out more settlers. Colonize the flood plains to the north.

And lastly, why is Germany still alive? Wipe him out. IIRC, With each less civ tech costs go down (I may be wrong about this). Anyway, in AW the less the number of civs the better. With Germany gone you will still have the Japs (watch out for those Sams), Koreans (puny civ), Chinese, Indians and the Mongols. 4 of these have Chivalry based UUs. So when you hit them they will
have a golden age all at the same time. Watch out for that.

Hope I have answered your questions. Good luck! and keep us posted.

Thanks for you excellent points. The tutorial on how the Great Library works was especially enlightening. I just assumed the techs you received went according to the tree, and when you reached education you were done. I had no idea you could warp to industrial if the AI was that far ahead. Very useful information.

Contact
I was not successful on any suicide runs. I had to wait for them to come to me.



Forbidden Palace
Well, Cathy’s lands & cities pretty much stank as you can see if you open the save. I wound up building the FP too close to the palace for my taste, but the other option would have required a pretty long development time. Any comments on placement you would consider superior are welcomed.

Military
Cathy rolled over pretty easy.

The other continent
Now the fun part begins. I landed a built a beachhead at Araisuo. As you can see, the other civs are very excited to welcome me! At first getting troops in was pretty easy. Lately the AI has ganged up to blockade me. I built Gergovia just to have another place to land. I can ferry troops back & forth as needed.

Pillaging
I studied your Revenge game again & noted the need to Pillage. I have been sort of unlucky in the leader Department, but have managed to get enough to send two armies south. One went down the west coast Pillaging Delhi (used to be size 12!) on the way to the Korean capital.

The final showdown
Korea has replaceable parts but I will too shortly. I’m building cannon for an artillery upgrade. I plan to take the Japanese city to the north 1st for the Gems, and then move south razing as I go (except Delhi where Leonardo’s is). Should be fun from here on out. Thanks for you help.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/Brennus_of_the_Celts,_1610_AD.SAV

You seem to be on top of things.

Just one point. Those pillaging armies should focus on the capital first. Keep those armies permanently around the enemy capital and keep the enemy capital disconnected for the rest of the game. That way they can never trade luxes and resources among one another. The AI will never attack the army unless it too has an army. So your rifleman armies are safe until there are enemy tank armies rolling around.

If after that you have extra armies in store then send them to pillage some more core cities around the capital.

And remember, AW is a game of attrition. In Sun Tzu's words "You have safe guarded yourself against defeat. Now just wait and hang on till the enemy provides you the oppurtunity for your victory."

Keep Going!

Thanks for the tip. My southern army is on it's way to Korea's capital. The northern Amry will stay near the Indian Capital to prevent reconnection. After I take Delhi (Leonardo's) I'll move that army to Ghandi's new capital. It is amazing to see 12 infantry walk right past a rifle army and never fire a shot! It's like they can't even see it! By pairing 4 cavalry with a pillaging army things get pillaged even faster. Cav moves out on move 1, pillages on move 2 and returns to the loving arms of the Army on move 3. You truly have taught me a powerful strategy. [dance]

My plan for the weekend is to take Delhi with infantry so I can get Leonardo's, plus the Japanese gem city to the north.

BTW, I can't seen to upgrade army's. Is there a way to do it (that's not considered an exploit)?

Originally posted by handy900
By pairing 4 cavalry with a pillaging army things get pillaged even faster. Cav moves out on move 1, pillages on move 2 and returns to the loving arms of the Army on move 3. You truly have taught me a powerful strategy. [dance]

Click to expand...

This is nice strategy. I did not think of this. I will use this too from now on.

BTW, I can't seen to upgrade army's. Is there a way to do it (that's not considered an exploit)?

Click to expand...

Yes, normally you cannot upgrade armies. However, there is a trick by which you can unload an army, then upgrade the units in it and then load it back up. I will search for the thread and ost it here.

I do not consider this an exploit. In fact I feel this should have been built into the game. It really sucks when you are stuck with a sword army in the modern age.

EDIT: Here is the thread. However, this seemed to be a bug. SO firaxis has fixed it in the latest PTW patch. I have never used it so I do not know whether it still works or not. Try it out and let me know.

Originally posted by betazed
I do not consider this an exploit. In fact I feel this should have been built into the game. It really sucks when you are stuck with a sword army in the modern age.

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I agree with this one. Although CIV3 is not the "real world" it's obvious to me that upgrading ARMY's is what any CIV would do that had the means. It just seems like you should be able to do this (like you should be able to airlift workers & artillery). Just wanted to make sure it's within the spirit of the game.

BTW - I have another Always War "Spritit of the Game" question.
Do you ever enter the diplomacy screen, act like you are going to make peace, look at the techs & resources of your foe, then cancel out?. This occurred to me last night as an easy way to "spy" on Korea who I know to be ahead of me due to the destroyers they are sening my way. I've not done it yet, wanted some guideance from you first. I gotta admit, it's a very tempting very easy way to spy!

On pillaging with horse + Army. You'll know this already - but for the benefit of others reading this - be careful you don't leave your Cav hanging out to dry. On flat lands, Cav move #1 is to opponent square, pillage on move #2, then move #3 is back to the square where the ARMY is. Be careful with hills, if you are moving from Flat to hills, your Cav's turn ends on move #1 to the hill (in opponents territory). If in mountains or hills already, Pillage with the Horse first (move 1), On move 2, move to the next hill or mountain (the Cav turn will end here - 1 square from where you just pillaged). Now move the army to catch up with the CAV. On Flat lands you can pillage alot faster, but pillaging mountains & hills cripples AI's production & often takes out luxs & resources.

This pillaging with ARMY + Cav is so powerful, it needs to be in the War Academy! Interestingly, Korea has left my ARMY alone despite having a huge infantry stack right next to the ARMY one time that easily could have wiped the ARMY out! For some reason, Japan did attack & wipe out a rilfe army.

I think it was a 3 rifle army, not a 4 rifle army. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. The Korea ARMY has a couple extra Rifles tagging along. maybe that scared them away!

Poor Seoul. used to be size 12 with roads & mines. In the pic you only see 3 horses (not 4 as I recommend) becasue I foolishly left 1 hanging outside the ARMY's protection.

Originally posted by handy900

Do you ever enter the diplomacy screen, act like you are going to make peace, look at the techs & resources of your foe, then cancel out?.

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This is perfectly legitimate. As long as you cancel out and do not do any deals.

You are right about the pillaging strategy. In fact it should be in the strategy articles. I will write one up and post it there. Then you can also chime in and post your experiences.