MIddle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)

Celeborn · Sep 23, 2003

LotR Thread I:
LotR Modders UNITE!!! Half-way-point.
LotR Thread II:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54134&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=4 Half-way-point.
LotR Thread III:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont) Half-way-point.
LotR thread IV:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (4) Half-way-point
LotR thread V:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (5)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60650 Half-way-point
LotR thread VI:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (part-hex)[Latest]http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63116 Half-way-point

In the threads of the past I used to say this was 'unnecessary for the regulars' to read. But now I don't believe it is so. Many petty arguments are going around, most likely the fault of a more
cramped style of discussion. While we cant blame anyone for the fault of this, if someone has something to say, please say it civilly. We have a chance to make what all of us have hoped for, a .mod that spawned from the ingenious world of J.R.R. Tolkiens imagination. The harder we work for it, the better off we will be. So please, when proposing an idea carefully consider if this has been brought up before. If it has, and you think an unjust decision was made, bring about a reevaluation post, and use points of why your\this way would be better. We then in turn would gladly and respectfully discuss the matter, by viewing all pros and cons.
[-ed.]

I will remind you that we started working on this .mod as a gathering of Modders, who had an acute interest in Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth. This is a continuation of six threads created, as seen at the Links above. We made some significant progress in actually working together to make a collaboration of ideas, to please everyone. The more we professionally discuss our varied beliefs, the closer to the end we will be.

Thread Log
-In the Third installment of our collaboration, significant work was completed on the buildings\wonder\improvement front. Unfortunately it was sort of sporadic, and it's hard to define just what we did .
Discussion of the maps also took place, at which point Yoda Power offered to make an older version of Middle-earth, you can see this here

-In the Fourth thread, we have gathered some new blood, and discussed about how to implement certain civilizations into the game, namely Isengard and Rohan. We set our course to make it clear, to stomp on the sporadic-ness of the third thread.

-In the Fifth thread, more new blood, significant progress in accumulating graphic designers, and a recession, in which the new blood has expressed their long bottled up opinions on how the mod should go. Talks on the tech tree in a forum based discussion has been put off for a bit. We should let the new (and old) idea's re-circulate, meanwhile, chat based discussion will take place at undefined periods, then re-introduced into the sixth installment of the thread.

-In the Sixth thread, believe it or not more new blood, and many of them CFC 'old-timers'. The tech tree thread should be getting a tech update, to initiate discussion about how to branch the tree itself. Lots of opinions have been rattling around, and we have gotten even more beautiful works and ideas from the unit creators\graphic designers.

The near future should hold these steps-
1.) Resources (completed)
2.) Tech Tree (see above thread log 5)
3.) Random Map Civ listings (debate)
The later future would be more inclined for these-
4.) Finalize Units
5.) Update 'engine'
6.) Governments *Beta Released
And lastly, the big one-
7.) Fine tuning Undefined period-

Large amounts of intellectual discussion should be going on, while in the background techs are completed, then posted to see the forumers general opinion. It would be most wise for everyone to post there idea civilization listing in this thread. But be warned, compromises will be made.

FAQ
What is going to be in the MOD? When will it span? What are the Civs? Has work started yet?

1.)When will it span?
Well, we decided that the Mod should start slightly before the coming of man. Like this:

Era#1 First Age (middle-late first age, with the arrival of man)

Era#2 Time of the Rings (Elven supremacy and Saurons Power)

Era#3 Time of the Númenóreans\Dark Age (Supremacy of Man, Numenor and it's later subdivisions\Last Alliance)

Era#4 Third Age(Best known, time of the peace, yet weakened state, time of the fellowship)

This way it wont be strange to have all civs in existence, and yet it still has the remarkable, mythological old middle-earth in tact.

2.)What are the Civs?
We havent been able to agree on Civs at this point, we have all the important ones but have some minor squabbles, such as: is Arnor, Gondor, and Numenorë really necessary? Should Umbar and the Southrons be one civ? Should there be two Dwarf Civs? We have been arguing about this forever, it seems to lean towards accepting Gondor and Arnor, and also Numenorë. In this case should Numenorë be a more evily inclined civilization?
Yet for the Random Map, perhaps Numenor should be excluded? After all, we could make a Numenorë scenario after the main mod is completed. We would really like your input on Civs.

A few important Civs we have made lists for can be located here:
The Shire
Gondor
The Dwarves
Mordor
High Elves(Noldorian)

Some civs that may or may not be added, or ones that are not finished yet, can be found here (thanks SoCalian) :
Valinor
Haradrim
Numenor
Rohan
Arnor
Dale

(SoCalian- Perhaps we can get some revised, easily quoteable (copy\pasteable) city listings that you have worked on; [yes I am lazy!] . )

3.) What is going to be in the MOD?
We plan on numerous versions of the Mod, most important first.

Mod Types

Random Map Mod (regular)

Middle Earth- Map of Middle Earth, with specific placed things (like dragons)

Lord Of the Rings quest- (You can only choose out of 3 Civs, though the rest make an appearance, but depending on the Civ you choose, you have a specific Victory cond.)

Older version- This will have modified ages, and different civs, such as the Vanyar, and unique buildings\wonders.

4.) Has Work Started on the .bix yet?
Yes, Celeborn has been working on the .bix for a bit now, we still remain in the red however, and need some more direction from fellow LotR fans. As seen above, the Beta will be revealed in do time. Work on the .bix isn't really necessary until a little bit later, we will have it all mapped out by then.

5.) I would like to join in this project, is there anything I can do to make the production go faster?
Well, we will always have need of those talented artists. If you would like to make some building graphics, just pick one off the list below, but make sure work on that hasn't already started or been completed.
If you would like to make units for the game, certain ones we are looking for are:

Silvian Archer\Elven Archer
A Wood Elf type of unit, used for, Well an Elven archer unit. Preferably hooded .

Troll
We already have the Cave Troll, and this unit is great, but we would like to use an early offensive unit that would act as one of the expensive 'behemoth units' for Mordor, similar to the Cave Troll, yet smaller, but more lithe.

Elven Cavalry
The units, weapons doesn't matter that much, but a bow or spear sounds nice.

Dwarf Defender
Possibly a complement Kindreds High Guard.

Dwarf Offensive
Another complement to Kindreds unit, this time the Ironbreaker, probably heavy armor. Somewhat like the Dwarves of Belegost, with a metal mask\helmet to protect them from heat and flame?

Dwarf Archer
We know from accounts that the Dwarves used missile units in defense of their towers in the days of old. This Archer would probably be heavily armored, and not agile. A more defense oriented unit.

Another Dwarf
A fast runner, think Dain and the dwarves from Iron Hills. A pickaxe and a shield would be very cool.

Medieval Worker
A worker, more heavily clothed than the Civ3 counterpart, yet still more 'medieval' than the Civ3 Modern Worker.

(Thanks Mrtn)
Of course, beggars can't be choosers, and we would take anything LOTR (or similar) you throw at us!

Text
We would also appreciate civilopedia entries, but we can't comment on those yet.
-end FAQ

Buildings

***
Resources These are under debate-
Strategic:
Iron: +2s +0f +0: mountain, hills
Horses: +1s +0f +1c: Grassland, Hills, Plains
Timber: +1s +0f +0c: forest
Stone: +2s +0f +1c: mountain, hills
Wolves: -0s -1f -1c: tundra, forest

Luxuries:
Mithril: +4s +0f +4c: mountains
Wine: +0s +1f +2c: hills\grassland
Pipeweed:+0s +0f +2c: grassland\plains
Salt: +0s +1f +2c: hills
Gems:+0s +0f +2c: hills\mountains
Gold: +0s +0f +3c: hills\mountains
Wool:+1s +1f +1c: hills\grassland
Lebethron:+0s +0f +2c: forests

Bounus:
Wheat:+0s +2f +0c: grassland\plains\flood plain*
Oliphaunts:+2s +0f +0c: plains
Coneys:+0s +1f +0c: forests\grasslands\plains\hills
Deer:+1s +1f +0c: forest\hills\mountains
Cattle:+1s +2f +1c: grassland\plains
Fish:+0s +2f +1c: coast\sea
Silver:+0s +0f +2c: hills\mountains
Taters:+0s +2f +0c: grassland
Mushrooms:+0s +1f +0c: grassland\forest
Wasetland: -1s -1f -1c: Wilderland

Unit Lines
A word on the difference between civilizations unit lines in the RTF file.

If you would like to download the Unit lists, you can do so here, they are available in two formats, the first being of better quality, the second is the lists straight forward, in standard text format.
Word Pad-Rich Text Doc.(Recommended)
Standard Text Document

Other CFC LotR\fantasy oreinted threads to look at, in no paticular order:

Embryodeads WH MOD Preview
Embryodeads Fantasy Units Preview Thread II
Unit Preview Thread:LOTR
Middle Earth Map
ME: Lord of the Mods (Tech Tree)
Sorry this took so long... had computer problems...

PCHighway · Sep 24, 2003

Damn, forgot to take the [latest] tag off of thread five... fixed overview attachment at the bottom of the post. You will have to add that you had 'PC problems' again, if you decide to use this version of the Overview.

Welcome back Celeborn :goodjob:

! We thought something would have you off the internet, for a while I thought it was the hurricane :confused:

. But you know, if you actually answered PMs in the first place we would know if you got them of not

.

Ok, starting with [Ant]Wimp's original list, these are the civilizations I could live with.

Rohan
Gondor
The Shire
Mordor
Dwarves
Easterlings
Southrons
High Elves (Eldar)
Silvan Elves (Avari)
Númenor
Isengard

Notice they are the ones we all agree on

. Just pointing this out as the next bit might make you think I want something drastic. I said it before, and I will say it again. (this time with research to back me up!)

We should divide the Dwarves into two separate civilizations. Mrtn had a saying, that by far and large swayed me to put down my argument. The saying itself was, if I remember correctly;

"Remember when Dain arrived at the battle of the five armies? That wasn't an alliance, that was reinforcements."

I picture that is true enough for relations (such as Dain and Thorin) yet it doesn't actually hold for the Dwarves. It implies that the Dwarves thought of themselves as one 'civilization' who would always help each other out. But the truth is, the Dwarves were very clan-like.

It is very nearly like calling the Visigoths the same as the Ostrogoths. Same origins, same ethnic, yet undeniably they fought against each other bitterly, and for two very distinct reasons. Having a race called Goths is fine, but having a civilization called by the same name, is not.

In the Silmarillion, p104 in the edition Mrtn and I both have:

Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithed for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work, though none among them surpassed the craftsmen of Nogrod, of whom Telchar the smith was the greatest in renown. A warlike race of old, were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.

Not seldom their own kin. The above quote is important for two distinct reasons. 1.) Dwarves of other mansions and lordships. Implies some type of clan-feudal system. And says the Naugrim of Nogrod were the best craftsmen of these city-states, if you will. Thus that means there were numerous mansions, Nogrod and Belegost being the most famous and important. So now we know there are lots of different city-states, and it helps us with searching for city names. 2.) Is, obviously pointing out they fought each other, and only in an extreme case of danger or something that ticked them off, would they unite against a larger enemy.

Now, from a Middle-earth accuracy standpoint, I see that this way is obviously more correct, and more true to Tolkiens world. Yet from a gameplay perspective, its not necessary. But let it be known, when we all release our flavors for this, you can bet I will have two separate civilization of the loveable*cough*, Naugrim

.

So where was I? Oh yes, Civs I would like to see

.

-
Arnor
Blue Mountain Dwarves
Easterlings
Third Elven Civ*
Gondor
High Elves (Eldar)
Rohan
Isengard
Misty Mountain Dwarves
Mordor
Northmen*
Númenor*
Silvan Elves (Avari)
The Shire
Southrons
-

All those with a * are explained ones I wish to discuss. Northmen, I will explained later, it takes to long to write up

. I wouldnt mind a third Elven civ, but only if it fits into a regional or ethnical category. I dont want there to be High Elves, Silvian Elves, and Gondolin... I would like a third category of the Elves, located in Middle-earth. Sort of like a spin-off race of the Avari. Why some of you ask? Well, limiting the civs like a zealot is stupid.

Because, if you want to say only one Elven civilization was important, you can say the same for Men. I can eliminate all the high-men with one word. Edain. So should we only have two Mannish civs, the Edain and the evil men? No?

The only problem with the Elves is they were largely based in city-empires. Thus leading to the bad one-city civilization. In some cases, it probably wasnt like that. But unfortunately we have more information about Gondor than all the realms\towns around Lorien.

I believe three Elven civs is justifiable.

Númenor, this is an extra. Sort of like having the some PtW\c3c civs in the game. Did we really need the mainland Celts when we had France, Germany, England and Russia? No, but it didnt detract from the experience, and let us all have a good time with it. More civs=more diversity= more games. How many of you have played a game as Rome with enemies such as Carthage, the Celts, the Greeks, the Egyptians and the Persians? I know I have, and, well it was fun!

There is no problem with more civilizations than 8. But we should lay down the main game like Firaxis did, before we go adding flavor civilizations.

embryodead · Sep 24, 2003

PCHighway's list seems the best so far to me. I'm not sure about the third elves, or northmen, but if you can convince others with background, cities, units etc. it's fine.
BUT where is Angmar/Angband??? :mad:

Mithadan · Sep 24, 2003

Wow. I cant think about all of that right now. :crazyeye:

But I can chat a wee bit about Elven civs, perhaps.

Originally posted by SoCalian
As far as I can tell the two elven civs we have right are from Beleriand. That gives no representation to the elves elsewhere. Could you please show me where the other elves would fit into thes two. As far as the Vanyar go I think that they should be included also. They did have more actual cities that almost anyone else. Besides that, they are the only civ from Aman that we can add that is realistic. They give good representation of Aman too. Another point I would like make is that there will be 6.5 Man civs in the mod, and only 2 Elvish civs they way it seems to be going. that seems to me to be just a little bit of underrepresentation for such an important race. I propose that we have at least 4 Elven Civs. They should be the Noldor and Sindar, plus The Vanyar and Lorion. lorion because it was an actual nation. The way I see it, we should not exclude any civ that we can get a sizeable city list for and was relatively impotant.

If we're only going to have two Elven civs, then one should be generally "high"-elven, and one should be generally "low"-elven. Both the Sindar and the Noldor were high elven, even though the Sindar never went to Valinor (they are accounted as Eldar, because their King had been to Valinor, and the light of the two trees was present in their Maiar queen, Melian). They both fought Morgoth in Beleriand, although the Sindar didn't quite have the same bloodlust as did the Noldor. After the binding of Morgoth (which is the only time the Vanyar showed up in Middle-Earth), most of the Noldor went back to Aman. The realms that were founded by the Noldor in the Second Age (Lindon, Mithlond, Eregion, Rivendell) were pretty much lead by Noldorin elves, but of mixed Noldorin, Sindarin (and even Silvan?) elves. The two great Elvish realms of the Third Age, Lorien and Thranduil's kingdom, were both of Silvan elves (one of the "low" or "dark" strains), albeit with a bit of mixing-in of Sindar elves and being ruled either by Noldor or Sindar. Most of the elves that would remain in Middle-Earth would be of the "low" type, seeing how they didn't have the urge to return to Valinor, where they'd never been. Ossiriand was a realm of Moriquendi in the First Age, but they stayed relatively apart from the anti-Morgoth wars of the high-elves. So:

1. The Vanyar didn't set foot in Middle-Earth save to leave it and go to Valinor the first time, and to come back for a single battle. Sounds like we could do well without them in our mod.

2. The only time the Sindarin elves had a realm of their own was in the First Age, under the protection of Melian, in Doriath. They fought alongside the Noldorin elves against Morgoth until the end of the age.

3. The Noldor were a relatively united front against Morgoth in the First Age, but most returned to Valinor at the Breaking of the World.

4. The dark-elves of Ossiriand (the Green-elves) remained well-enough apart from the activities of the high-elves in the First Age, but remained a self-contained entity throughout. Presumably the rest of Middle-Earth beyond Beleriand was populated with gobs of other dark-elves, and no other sorts of elves at all.

5. For the Second and Third Ages, the Noldor and the Sindarin formed mixed realms, none of which survived into the Third Age save in single-city form (the Grey Havens, Rivendell).

6. The major elf-realms of the Third Age were of moriquendi (Silvan, for the most part) ruled by high-elves (Sindar or Noldor).

So the Sindar and the Noldor are only distinct political and cultural entities during the First Age, and even then they are united in purpose. They coalesce in the Second Age, and virtually disappear in the Third.

The Dark-Elves (green-elves, Silvan, others) form one known realm in Beleriand in the First Age and constitute the single elven presence in the rest of Middle-Earth. They remain throughout the Second Age, and form the bulk of the great Elvish realms of the Third Age.

So if we're going to have two Elvish civs, then I think the high-elf vs. low-elf division is the way to go. Nomenclature can be discussed later.

If you want three elven civs, then sure, what the heck, split the high-elves into the Noldor and the Sindar.

I imagine this will come down to gameplay in the end, something about which I know next to nothing. If you want to see a continuity of Elvish civilsation over the ages, then I think less is more. If you don't give a rat's bottom about there being eleven elvish civs in the Third Age, then fine, make Eregion it's own civ, Gondolin its own Civ, Rivendell its own civ, Thranduil's elves its own civ, and keep going. Doesn't seem parsimonious to me, though.

This would be much easier to solve if our dear game could tolerate one civ turning into another, or splitting off into a number of civs, or melding with another civ into a new one. Sort of like it happened in RL history. But, it doesn't, so sucks to be us.

Mithadan · Sep 24, 2003

The northmen would cover Dale, the Beornings, the guys from whom the Rohirrim came, and the Breelanders quite nicely.

Originally posted by embryodead
BUT where is Angmar/Angband???

Angmar is up in the North-eastern corner of Eriador, I think, up by the tops of the Misty Mountains. It's location is probably a good reason why we're thinking of smooshing it together with the Misty Mountain Orcs, who's capital was under Mount Gundabad at one point. Here's a thought: Angmar was ruled by the chief Nazgûl, and later Dol Guldur was reclaimed for Sauron by the Nazgûl. Maybe we could figure out a way to include Dol Guldur into the "Angmar" civ, as strictly innacurate as that might be.

Angband is in the far, far north of Beleriand. You can't see it on the Chris Tolkien maps from the Silmarillion, but you can see it in maps Tolkien drew in the Books of Lost Tales (if memory serves). Angband is destroyed with the rest of Beleriand at the end of the First Age. Here's a map from a secondary source (Karen Wynn Fonstadt) showing Angband. If I may say so myself, I think Angband is a little further away from Taur-nu-Fuin than that.

Edit: here, I cropped another K. W. Fonstadt map so you can see, roughly, where Angmar is:

embryodead · Sep 24, 2003

Mithadan, I know where Angmar and Angband lies, I was asking where they are if not on the list!

They are a must, at least the Angmar.

...Angband is also a kicka$$ roguelike

Mithadan · Sep 24, 2003

Originally posted by embryodead
Mithadan, I know where Angmar and Angband lies, I was asking where they are if not on the list!

Oops!!!

mrtn · Sep 24, 2003

Originally posted by Mithadan
...So if we're going to have two Elvish civs, then I think the high-elf vs. low-elf division is the way to go. Nomenclature can be discussed later.

If you want three elven civs, then sure, what the heck, split the high-elves into the Noldor and the Sindar...

Word.
I only posted about having them called Sindar and Noldor as those where the elven 'sorts' I remembered off hand. Remember we (at least me and embryodead) want this mod to be accessible to the ignoramuses, who haven't read the books, but thought the films where kick-ass.

I gotta rush now, will return with dragon-fire later.

This thread seems to start off very nice. :thumbsup:

[Ant]Wimp · Sep 24, 2003

I very much enjoyed PCs argument on the Dwarfs. And I agree: They were clans. I think we should either go with 1 dwarf civ, or clans. PC named Blue mountain and Misty Mountain. I'd like to add the Iron Hill Dwarves if were going with clans. But looking at it form a gameplay perspective, one dwarf civ would do fine enough too I guess. So either one or three IMHO

On the Elves: I agree, two might be too few. Mithadens thoughts about having High (Noldor, Sindar) and Low (Silvan) seems perfectly fine to me.

Angmar should defnitly be included. Angband mayb

Owen Glendower · Sep 24, 2003

Unless I'm mistaken isn't Angband ONE fortress? I seem to recall it was an western outpost of Melkor's.

"Angband was a mighty fortified citadel originally constructed by Melkor in the earliest days of the world as an outlying fortress to his northern stronghold of Utumno. Utumno was destroyed by the Valar, and Melkor imprisoned in Valinor for three ages, but on his return to Middle-earth, he took Angband as the seat of his power, and raised the towers of Thangorodrim above its gates.

Angband was beseiged by the Noldor during the early part of the First Age, but the Siege of Angband was broken at the Dagor Bragollach. It was finally destroyed by the forces of the Valar at the end of the First Age, in the War of the Wrath. "

It seems to me if Angband is anything, it's a city which is part of another Civ.

Sir John · Sep 24, 2003

In reference to pch list. I think this is the first time I have agreed with u so much

.. Altough I do like the bombing eagle idea I see you guys points and I guess I sort of agree..

Angband shouldnt be a civ.. we have enough with mordor... Angband could be a "flavour civ" later...

Sir John · Sep 24, 2003

btw:About the dwarven civs. I dont think we should go with the clans. Its a cool idea but to make it good there would have to be a lot of them and we cant have to many as we so have other civs as well

mrtn · Sep 24, 2003

Sir John is agreeing with PCH, and I'm agreeing with SJ, where's the world coming to? :crazyeye:

A lot of dwarves is cool, but: we still have problems getting a decent city list for one dwarf civ. We have about ten city names. And this is including Moria and Khazad Dum, and other duplicates. I might accept two dwarf civs, if I get a decent city list. I think city lists are very important; bad city lists: bad civs.

Sir John: It seems you have accepted that the "Eagle-lovers" where in a minority. :thumbsup:

I'm sorry if I "Ripped off your head and crapped down the hole", so to speak, but I was just soooo tired of the Eagles.

Owen: Angband wasn't a western outpost, it was the center of Melkor's/Morgoth's "Evil Empire" (to quote Ronald Reagan

). I think it's perfectly qualified to be a civ. The war with the Noldor you quote is the great fight in the First Age. Sauron was just a copy cat.

Owen Glendower · Sep 24, 2003

Last I checked.. an "outllying fortress" by definition is no where near the center of an empire.

Ok Melkor returned to Angband and used it as his 'seat of power' but how long did that last? It was destroyed a 2nd time.

If you're going to have Melkor as a power in the mod.. shouldn't his capitol be whatever it was before he was first captured and carted off? Rather than Angband which was his 2nd attempt?

mrtn · Sep 24, 2003

Owen, read the Silmarillion.

I realise that I might sound snide (and I'm probably gonna be bashed by Mithadan or some other Tolkien scholar

), but you have to do that to be able to discuss the first two ages of ME. Melkor lived in Aman until he was found out (as he was an evil SOB), and kicked out. After that he went to Beleriand and built Angband. Angband was his seat of power both times he had any power in the lands of the living.
I think I got the gist of things right, at least.

Owen Glendower · Sep 25, 2003

Well either someone needs to complain to the guys putting together the Encylopedia of Arda that they don't know what they're talking about.. (and considering they're selling CDs of the stuff I'm sure many people would point that sort of thing out).. or someone should go re-read the Silmarillion.

On a personal level I don't really care all that much either way. It's not THAT big of a deal to me. I'm just throwing in my penny's worth and will leave it at that. If you're right, fine.. if you're not then Angband is more accurately represented as a city within a civ.

mrtn · Sep 25, 2003

Owen, I'm sorry, I realise I sound as a Elite Fascist Junta Pig, but have you read the Silmarillion? Just so I know where you're coming from.
I guessed that quote was from the EoA, and sometimes they squeeze their stuff very much.

Time for me to get my beauty sleep. * If I can sleep, as PCH and SoCalian will be screaming "Sucker!" all the time.

*

SoCalian · Sep 25, 2003

No mrtn, I won't screem sucker (this time

). I wanted to post about the Elven Civs tonight but I had to wright my negative case for debate, and it took a good 5-9 hours. So good night all, and I'll be back tomorrow.

edit: post #666 :satan:

Mithadan · Sep 25, 2003

Sure there was factional fighting between Dwarves, but I think we're better off representing them given our Civ3 limitations as a single civ. There's all sort of internal strife and even civil war inside a "civilisation" that Sid Meier's brainchild is hard-put to represent. Oh well.

Originally posted by mrtn
Owen, read the Silmarillion. I realise that I might sound snide (and I'm probably gonna be bashed by Mithadan or some other Tolkien scholar ...

LOL! Wow, I'm honoured, I'm a Tolkeener!

Mrtn is right, too, about Angband. Utumno was Morgoth's first stronghold, and Angband was off to the side. Utumno got toasted off rather early in the game, so Morgoth moved to Angband and turned it into his next stronghold -- and it stayed that way for the rest of the First Age. But yeah, there's not many more "cities" that are part of the Angband "civ." Thing is, Tolkien didn't really care much about giving folks a complete city list. Besides, civilisations parallel urbanisation, but there's a lot more to history than urbanisation. Morgoth didn't need an urban base, because his orcs didn't need to live in cities in order to occupy and harass most of Beleriand. Same with most of the "barbarians" in history, too, which are merely "camps" in our benighted game. Oh well, sucks to be us again. We haven't got much of a city list for Mordor, either, do we? There are locations in Mordor, but Tolkien doesn't tell us that there are cities there, or the names of them if there are such, in places like Nurn or Udûn, eh? Oh well, we can get by. We could get by with Angband, too, if we wanted to.

Originally posted by Owen Glendower
Well either someone needs to complain to the guys putting together the Encylopedia of Arda that they don't know what they're talking about.. (and considering they're selling CDs of the stuff I'm sure many people would point that sort of thing out).. or someone should go re-read the Silmarillion.

Have I said this before, or have I not? Read the Encyclopedia of Arda with care. Heck, you should read the Encyclopædia Brittanica with care. The EofA is a handy resource, that's all. It's not holy writ. And that's just for starters. If you'd have paid more attention to the really long entry written up on Angband (notice how short the entry is for Utumno?), you might have gathered that Angband is the best candidate for a Morgoth civ and capital city. I don't see how this particular entry is particularly misleading. Re-read it again, and then, if interest and stamina takes you, (re-)read(?) the Silmarillion. I find it rather a dry read, myself.

I know it's just your penny's worth. So long as you and I don't get our knickers in a knot over your penny, we're fine.

PCHighway · Sep 25, 2003

embryodead-
PCHighway's list seems the best so far to me.

Does this agreement include the two Dwarven civs or not ;-)?

embryodead-
I'm not sure about the third elves, or northmen, but if you can convince others with background, cities, units etc. it's fine.
BUT where is Angmar/Angband???

Angmar, right... Well, I could live with it, the only apprehension I have is that it is the part same civilization as Mordor. Moreover, who would be the leader? One of Mordors 'great leaders'? :confused:

Mithadan-
1. The Vanyar didn't set foot in Middle-Earth save to leave it and go to Valinor the first time, and to come back for a single battle. Sounds like we could do well without them in our mod.

Sounds good to me, I don't think it would be good in a gameplay perspective to have cities from Valinor. An argument was made by SoCalian, that the Vanyar would be more 'realistic' instead of a Valinor civilization, with gods and all. But I don't really think this is true, imagine the leader being Eönwë! If they could kick Melkors ass, they are to powerful to really be a civilization.

Mithadan-
3. The Noldor were a relatively united front against Morgoth in the First Age, but most returned to Valinor at the Breaking of the World.

This is interesting, personally, I am wondering if we should not make the third Elvish civilization the Sindar, and instead the two houses of the Noldor? It would make sense in a diplomatic sense, their strife causing... strife amongst one another. Divided against the united front of Angmar, Mordor, and Isengard, they would surely face problems and be reduced third era, if not, the fourth one for sure. But I'm glad we all seem to agree three Elvish civilization are necessary..

Mithadan-
4. The dark-elves of Ossiriand (the Green-elves) remained well-enough apart from the activities of the high-elves in the First Age, but remained a self-contained entity throughout. Presumably the rest of Middle-Earth beyond Beleriand was populated with gobs of other dark-elves, and no other sorts of elves at all.

This arises difficulty for city names, but I suppose its doable. Ive been wondering of the kingdom of Thranduil or Mirkwood in general, do you know when they came to be a kingdom in the strictest sense of the word? How could they be represented (this question goes beyond the Random Map version)?

Mithadan-
The Northmen would cover Dale, the Beornings, the guys from whom the Rohirrim came, and the Breelanders quite nicely.

Thats what I was thinking, but how could we incorporate them into the game? When the Rohirrim left them, they seemed to break-up and become refuges, or dead. If we can't refer to them as the league they once were, then what? Should we represent them in their early years as the League, then separate kingdoms in the later age? How, to represent them as separate kingdoms, perhaps expensive light-offensive-infantry? And a lack of cavalry?

Regarding Angmar-
If we were to commit such a heretic act, who would be the king of this united Angmar\Angbad? Sauron? That itself is not possible if he is going to be the king of Mordor, we should drop Angbad. Perhaps subtly hint to it, influence the units and buildings for the Angmar civ in the early ages, but nothing more.

[Ant]Wimp-
I very much enjoyed PCs argument on the Dwarfs.

Ph3ar m4 L337 skillz?

.

[Ant]Wimp- And I agree: They were clans. I think we should either go with 1 dwarf civ, or clans. PC named Blue mountain and Misty Mountain. I'd like to add the Iron Hill Dwarves if were going with clans. But looking at it form a gameplay perspective, one dwarf civ would do fine enough too I guess. So either one or three IMHO

But I dont think 1 civ or 5 civs is the right answer. The idea is somewhat alluring, having all the different mansions and hoards represented in 1-city civs. But for this version (Random Map), it just wouldnt fit. I think if we divide it into two civs, it would be best. I will research the longbeams, firebeards, etc. or whatever the hell they were. It would give me more information to back up this argument anyway.

[Ant]Wimp- On the Elves: I agree, two might be too few. Mithadens thoughts about having High (Noldor, Sindar) and Low (Silvan) seems perfectly fine to me.

Angmar should defnitly be included. Angband maybe

Yes, three Elven civilizations, or at most four, would be more than sufficient.
Oh, and PCH if you will. Ill stop using the [Ant] tag

.

Sir John-
In reference to pch list. I think this is the first time I have agreed with u so much .. Altough I do like the bombing eagle idea I see you guys points and I guess I sort of agree..
Angband shouldnt be a civ.. we have enough with mordor... Angband could be a "flavour civ" later...

Welcome Back :goodjob:

, Well, way back when, mrtn's idea was to give\make a pre-placed (immobile-air unit) winged Dragon on a mountain, along with a airfield (re-named of course). This way the Dragon would bombard enemy units, and be in locked alliance with the evil civs. I don't see why we can't do the same with the eagles, for the good civilizations. By adding (good gaia\bad gaia) we could represent all sorts of creatures, not quite worth a whole civilization. And as mrtn said earlier, even mountains such as Caradhras! But who would own it :confused:

.

mrtn- Sir John is agreeing with PCH, and I'm agreeing with SJ, where's the world coming to?

Damn, I knew I shouldnt have put the drop on Spock... Messed up the whole space time continuum.

Yeah, yeah. Ill think of enough city names for two Dwarf civs, I assure you *ahem*.

mrtn-
Owen, I'm sorry, I realise I sound as a Elite Fascist Junta Pig, but have you read the Silmarillion? Just so I know where you're coming from.
I guessed that quote was from the EoA, and sometimes they squeeze their stuff very much.

Time for me to get my beauty sleep. * If I can sleep, as PCH and SoCalian will be screaming "Sucker!" all the time. *

Did you join Alcoholics Anonymous, and are now going back and apologizing for all the insults you've made. At this rate we better set aside 5-6hours when my turn pops up j\k

. Of course I agree, as I've said above. On the plus side, I havent heard the term Junta Pig used for quite some time. But it does fit for the Mrtn we all know and love

.

I suppose where the gret fall, the less must lead:
Succkeer

MIddle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)

Silver-Death

Pacific Coast Highway

Caliph

Wandering Woodsman

Wandering Woodsman

Caliph

Wandering Woodsman

Shaven not stirred

Warlord

Chieftain

The evil one...

The evil one...

Shaven not stirred

Chieftain

Shaven not stirred

Chieftain

Shaven not stirred

Deity

Wandering Woodsman

Pacific Coast Highway

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