*Spoiler1* Gotm24-Korea - Enter Middle Ages

*Spoiler1* Gotm24-Korea full map visibility of your starting landmass plus contact with 3 rival civs plus you must have completed the ancient age.

Please read these instructions to make certain you DO NOT run afoul of the new spoiler rules.

Spoiler threads are divided to allow players to participate in spoiler discussions AFTER they have played their game far enough to pass a certain point in time and have already gained specific knowledge of the game.

For this game, every player must pass three tests in order to be able to view or participate this spoiler discussion thread.

For the Gotm24:

1. Full map visibility of the entire starting landmass.
2. Contact with all 3 rivals or their remains. (Olive Green, Pink, Cyan).
3. Plus you must have completed the ancient age.


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You may discuss any game features/easter eggs that you discovered prior to the cutoffs.

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If you think you found a "bug", PM first or email me at gotm@civfanatics.net to see if we can identify it better by some general methods rather than cluttering up the discussion of the play of the game. Please do not use this thread to degrade it into a bug hunt when those issues are addressed elsewhere.

DO NOT mention Suicide Galleys/Suicide Junks unless you have already composed your own death poem and are prepared to commit Sepuku for dishonoring you family name.

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1) try to report and discuss how you progressively gained contact with other civilizations in your world. One thing that really helps in this is a minimap with colored arrows that shows your exploration path as well as any chains of contact trades that you may have made.

2) Again you may want to discuss specifics about the configuration of the geography in this game because this is a unique map situation that you will not encounter in games outside of the GOTM game under the "guiding game's master" style of play.

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Again we hope you are all enjoying this month's game.

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First. Wow! I'm really impressed with this map!

The first tech I worked on was pottery. When I got it I disbanded all of my chests for a quick build. My capital became a settler factory.

I was really surprised that there were no really good city spots nearby. My second city was founded past the mountain range near the Olive Green capital.

After I got the wheel I founded another city near the horses to the NE. After that I just built cities where ever I could find room.

I traded techs with the other civs. I was able to keep parity until the late ancient age. Then I started to fall behind. All of the other civs on my continent entered the MA before me.

I fought an early war with the Han, but nothing came of it and we made peace. When there was no more room to expanded I needed a target. The Pinks had no SRs and had built the Pyramids and Colossus (After a few futile attempts I gave up trying to build them). They were the obvious target.

I built a horde of horsemen and attacked. Their capital fell on the first turn. The invasion was going really smooth. I captured most of their cities without much problem. I had a group of eight horsemen waiting in a city near their second capital. That city was building the Great Library and I REALLY wanted it. So I was waiting for them to finish it.

But then ARGH the city with the horsemen culture flipped. I've NEVER had a city culture flip in the ancient age with that many troops in it. In addition to the horsemen I lost 3 slaves.

I didn't even get the GL. A civ on another continent got it first. But they did build the Hanging Gardens instead. At least I got that!

I reduced Pink to two cities. I offered peace and demanded all their tech and one city (on the barb island. Olive Green has three cities there). They had no gold. I got what I wanted. Now Pink is reduced to one tundra city near the Han.

As I enter the MAs I wonder what I'm going to do next.

Easter Eggs? The whole map is an Easter Egg!

Open 1.29 (I'd like an icon for the open division, please?)

Emperor level games have been my bane for many months now, probably because I'm a "fly by the seat of the pants" player. MM is a necessary evil that frequently precedes my attendance at confession, and I'm not even catholic. Surviving is not the issue, winning is. Right away, I'm banking my salvation on the Great Library; particularly since a diplomatic victory is my goal, and I likely will not have the territory or population to be in the running when the UN is built. So, I need to be the one who builds it; therefore, I neeed to be able to obtain fission first or, more likely, soon after the AIs, w/ a prebuild palace ready to switch. I don't anticipate being involved in wars, and I hope a couple world wars will force the AIs into communism. One thing I don't intend on doing in this game, is providing the AIs w/ sweet deals for tech, unless I anticipate the end is near - one way or the other.

*Spoiler1* Gotm24-Korea - Enter Middle Ages:

Set research to Terra Cota for granaries, then Calligraphy -> Literature.

3450 BC - Met the Goguryeo, traded them Alphabet & Bronze Culture for Burial Rituals, Martial Arts, & 10 gold.

3050 BC - Met the Baekje, no deals (they had no techs to offer).

2850 BC - P'yongyang founded (second city).

2510 BC - Met the Han Dynasty (Yikes! The Han!!!), no deals.

1990 BC - Traded the Goguryeo Terra Cota & 80 gold for the Wheel.

1225 BC - Purchased Taoist Mysticism from the Han for 90 gold.

1200 BC - Purchased Masonry from the Goguryeo for 78 gold + 1gpt.

775 BC - Reached Literature; switched Oracle production in Seoul over to the Great Library.

190BC:


One turn to go!


170 BC - Seoul builds the Great Library. Massive jump in tech ensues.

After GL:


150 BC - Entered Middle Ages.

Observations: I was somewhat surprised that the civs that I share land with were not much further ahead of me in tech during the early game, usually are it seems. I don't believe any of them are expansionist civs, because I didn't see a single scout. Barb island still unsettled, but I plan to land soon w/ defensemen and settlers. I am yet to establish embassies w/ any civs, but plan to do so as soon as I begin playing again, inorder to maintain polite to gracious relations. From what I can tell, there have been no wars, which gets me thinking. If a diplomatic victory is the goal for medal play, one might anticipate certain 'givens' in how to obtain a victory. But, what if all the civs in the game are culturally similar, which is likely, and are set up to get along. How hard would a diplomatic victory be then? Any rep hit would be devastating to a shot at a UN victory. May be very important to ensure trade deals are not broken due to war, etc. My plans for the Middle Ages include improving infrastructue, maintaining polite relations, trading w/ local civs, and boning up my research rate. Now, the question is, am I able to keep up in tech after the GL expires w/ out warring for tech?

One thing to watch out for in this spoiler is mini-map or screenshots containing one, if you've sent out any suicide boats during the ancient age. Even though no additional landmass may be revealed, you'd still be showing where *not* to look. Apologies if this is obvious but I realized I might have ended up doing it by mistake in a screenshot meant to show other info...

Will need to compose my spoiler1 report. Suffice it to say I will need some serious "spin doctoring" to get any UN votes :devil2:

Ironic that a diplo game has resulted in my most dishonorable actions in some time, but I was seriously hemmed in. Now trade's gonna be a problem; guess I'll need more territory!

Originally posted by Naboo
One thing to watch out for in this spoiler is mini-map or screenshots containing one, if you've sent out any suicide boats during the ancient age. Even though no additional landmass may be revealed, you'd still be showing where *not* to look. Apologies if this is obvious but I realized I might have ended up doing it by mistake in a screenshot meant to show other info...

Click to expand...

I've not yet built a galley. My knowledge of the primary landmass was gained through trade.

Originally posted by Naboo
Ironic that a diplo game has resulted in my most dishonorable actions in some time, but I was seriously hemmed in. Now trade's gonna be a problem; guess I'll need more territory!

Click to expand...

Do you think there may be some correlation with the choice of a 'Diplomatic" target and the fact that a high scoring diplomatic victory may not be such a cake walk?

Has anyone decided what the significance is of the choice of your early neighbors?

1.29 open

Cracker: I wanted to thank you for such a well constructed scenerio. I am done already, and it was by far the most fun game of Civ I have played.

I'll write up things for this thread in more detail shortly. But here are my summary memories of the early parts of my game.

Despite the fertile terrain around the settling point, I found that my opponents were expanding like madmen. As 1000 BC was approaching, the only area I could expand further was to the south, but I decided to eschew that and go to war.

I sent out scouting warriors S, E, and then N. I met up with all three others on the mainland without much difficulty. The Han (Cyan) were advanced. Pink was backwards. Olive was in-between.

I think that Pink and Olive must have been religious civs, because their borders were expanding very quickly, probably as the result of quick temples.

Science wise, I researched Writing at 40, then maxed out Literature (to start getting some culture and to boost research) and then up the Republic tree.

I made the decision that I was going to be a warmonger early on, once I realized we were isolated (just the four of us). If I could establish dominance on the mainland and eliminate the locals, but was respectful of all overseas opponents, then I would be in good shape come UN time. And I wanted to establish dominance before meeting other civs if at all possible, so that they would not be drawn into our war.

I chose pink first, as they were really backwards. I would only need to take out two or three cities to keep them away from iron and horses. I attacked, and during the battles they built the Great Library (lovin' it). I took three cities and sued for peace, taking a tech in the deal. I had wanted to get to the ivory, but I ran out of archers pre-made a little short of the deal.

I then turned my attention to Olive. I started driving down southward and eastward. I wanted to secure a second iron source and also get to the wines.

The war with Olive ended in 150BC, and gave me the last ancient age tech as part of the settlement. I also got contacts, but that will have to wait for the next thread.

Here is a small image of the world right before I made peace and moved into the next age:

PTW open, 1.27

Like dales, I have finished the game already. Third person to submit!!!

Well, this was one of the best played games I have done. In fact, THE best. I moved my settler NW to get the extra wheat in the city radius. Irrigated the resources with the worker. Build a couple of warriors, then, after researching terra cotta, built a granary. This is where my game REALLY took off.

I managed to get the fabled 4-turn settler and warrior factory, and had a second city built by 2130BC, and finished expansion 1075BC, just before QSC cutoff. How did I do it?

Turn 1: City size 5, production is 10spt, set on warrior.
IBT: Complete warrior
Turn 2: City size 5, production is 10spt, set on settler.
Turn 3: City size 6, production is 11spt, settler is 12 shields complete.
Turn 4: City size 6, production is 11spt, settler is 23 shields complete
IBT: City grows to 7, settler built, city back to size 5.

This allowed me to have a very short, very fast expansion.

I decided to destroy olive first, as that would allow me a well rounded country. Also, the jungle of pink was off-puting. I saw, I conquered. Half on the conquest was during middle ages, so I will tell the rest of the story later.

Other things? I shot for the great Library, and built it. Another 'comes useful in next spoiler' acheivement.

Easter eggs? well, I noticed that for the last few GOTMs, some cities have been named after players. E.G. in Vikings, there was DaveMcwargborg, now here there is Qitaigyon. Are they named after the person who won the GOTM last try? I am not sure.

<--- Is that right? I'm doing Conquests, PTW 1.27


Ok, this is my first time with a GOTM. Been fun so far. I dont really understand settler factories and that sort of thing, but I think I got off to a good start. I made about 4 warriors to start and sent them in all directions and made really good trades for tech, so I must have been first contact for most of the other civs. I definitely got lucky there since I normally fall behind early on it seems. I built the Great Library in my capital in 670BC which was what I was going for (I researched straight towards Lit). Here's my map at 1000BC right before all heck broke loose:



I got iron working just a little bit before this. I was a little perturbed to discover that the pinkies had snagged the nearest source of iron, but I managed to get one to the south by building a city impeding into the olives' territory and I sent a bunch of workers down there to get to work.

Now, i didn't keep notes, so I'm a little foggy on what happend when, but I was getting real close to hooking up my iron when the pinks declared war on me. The Hans had declared war on me awhile ago, but I had gotten the olives to fight them and I wasn't seeing any of them, but the pinks were different and I wasnt quite ready. I had a bunch of warriors, but no iron yet.

It was a little hairy there for a bit, but as soon as I hooked up my iron I promoted a bunch of warriors and took pink's source of iron just NE of my capital. Unfortunately, the Hans must have been supplying them or something (though i have no idea how this is possible since the olives were at war witht hem so they shouldn't have had open trade route) and they just kept spitting out kensai <?> ... Somewhere around here, my alliance with the olives against hte hans ran out and the olives declared war on me as well. So now I was at war with everyone. Needless to say, between the hans and the olives, they knocked out my southern iron, but I got my new source hooked up and I was holding my own defensively in the south, so I concentrated on the pinks. I also made peace with the olives as soon as I could and then allied with them against the Hans again for a tech and some money (sorry i didn't keep track).

Anyway, eventually I wiped out the pinks. Here's the map right before I took their last mainland capital (they had two cities on the island to the west):



This was in 250AD and it was right around when I entered the Middle Ages. I'm pretty sure that all the war that went on kept our little continent from developing very fast. I'm just grateful I got the Great Library. In the turn following this map screenshot I took the pinks last mainland capital and got one of his cities on the western island. I also made peace with the Hans this turn (and they gave me money even though I'd never even sent a unit south). This didnt please the olives sunce we still had a military alliance, but I was about to turn into Republic and I didn't want to be at war.

At this point, I'm pretty much just worried about the Hans since they're doing alot of damage to the olives and wondering where the heck everyone else is.

1.27f
Predator

I am amazed to see people finished already, I was glad to get this far in three days, getting my QSC submitted was my goal. First, I want to say what an awesome game, very rich experience, the unit animations are awesome. It felt like a true scenario. I stayed with the starting location, partly because I usually do unless there is a very strong reason not to, and also because I could see an easy 4-turn settler factory. I decided not to go for the settler/worker combo, too much micromanagement and would take longer to set up. I settled and built two warriors, sending the first one south, the second generally north and east, following the mountains. After that I started a barracks to prebuild for Granary, I had been researching Terra Cotta at 90%.
I worked the north Wool first, for the luxury value, then moved south.

I looked to see who my neighbors might be, but all the names were different! I did a quick web search on a few of the names, and realized Baekje and Goguryeo were two of the "Three Kingdoms" of ancient Korea, so I expected to meet them. Also recognized Han as being China, and figured Tokugawa might be Japan, but that was about it. Took me a while to realize that I also didn't know what their characteristics would be, or their UUs.

Key Dates
3450 Meet Baekje - based on techs, looks like they are Religious and Commercial, since they don't need Alphabet. Matches India. Next turn I finish Terra Cotta, so I trade for Burial Ritual.
3350 Meet the Han Dynasty - they seem to match China's traits, I trade 3 techs for Masonry and Martial Arts. Basically, for a diplomatic win, I want to stay on everyone's good side, so I tend to trade techs whenever I can get something I want for them.
3050 Seoul completes Granary.
2850 First settler done, founds Inchon N of wheat in 2710. Basically, from here on I do a settler per 4 turns until I got to 10 cities, then somehow I got off track a few turns.
2470 Meet Goguryeo, based on techs they must be militaristic, religious, and/or scientific. Since I have a feeling we won't see another scientific civ (at least this early) due to the free tech bug/feature, I guess Religious/Military, matches Aztec. Now I am looking for Jaguar warriors in Korean clothes, but I don't see any!
I trade him two techs for Iron Culture, and can't see any Iron nearby (realized a few turns later it was already under my 3rd city).

Most of my new cities build themselves a warrior first, then a worker, then more of the same. Wonsan (Iron city) builds a barracks. BTW, after Terra Cotta, I went for Calligraphy at 40 turns, which is complete in 1700. After trading around, I get Taoist Mysticism and the Wheel. Tough call, Maps or Literature, I decide on Lit for the cheap libraries, and because the AI always seems to go for maps first. I push science up to 90% (10% Lux), and can get it in 17 turns.
1325 Literature! The gamble pays off, as the Han have MapMaking and the Goguryeo have Mathematics. I trade for Mapmaking, but I settle for a worker from the Goguryeo, they want too much for Mathematics right now. That's OK because I have decided they are my first target, I want the wines, and I was able to settle a city to cut off their Iron colony. I am massing 10 Bushi, through production and upgrades, and a few spear and extra warriors. I have 10 cities by now, to his 5. I also research Confucianism, because it is cheap and I can get it quick, and still trade with it.
1200 Confucianism, I trade around for Bajatsu and Math. My forces are ready, and next turn I declare war on Goguryeo. Within 6 turns, I take the capital and the city with the wine, and get a third city out of negotiations. I could easily take two more, but they are pop-1 and would autoraze, hurting my reputation, so I restrain myself. I also buy Civil Service in time for the QSC to end.

By now (1000) the Baejke completed the Pyramid, so I redirect my focus on them. It is a tough decision, I know I want to finish off the Goguryeo, but I have to wait at least 20 turns. I am also tempted to go after the Barb island, I'm sure there must be something there worth getting, but finally I decide the Pyramid is more valuable than anything else I see. After moving my Bushi north, and producing some more settlers to fill in gaps, I am ready to attack in 750BC. I trade for Currency first. I had an existing trade deal with them for their ivory, but after re-reading the article by Bamspeedy, as long as we are both giving something per turn, it is only a minor hit, not a big one. Anyway, the war begins as I march on Ch'ongju, which falls 2 turns later. The war drags on longer than I wanted, until I take Taejon, which was their Iron source, then the others start to fall pretty quickly. I make peace in 410, getting two more cities, one of which they built on the Barb Island. Meanwhile I have been researching Republic at 50%, hoping to time my revolt for the end of the war, but the Han already have Republic, and don't have construction, so I have to research that now to trigger the next age. Apparently someone beats me to it, as in 250BC the Barb Uprisings start. My poor Otomo spearmen looked like something out of a Bruce Lee movie as they each fend off a half-dozen horsemen on the island before dying. I eventually lose about 100 gold from about 10 pillages, but I get more defenders to my island city, and slowly start to beat them back. Anyway, 210BC I complete Construction, and enter the new era. I get lucky, and my tech is Feudal Warlords, so I can start upgrades. However, I am still in despotism, so my plan is to revolt now, and quickly finish off the Goguryeo during my anarchy, so I can start the middle ages in Republic and at peace. How successful I was will have to wait for the next thread!

The Korean Despotism, 210BC


[Edited the picture down a size]

Wow, I wouldn't have lasted in that situation.

It would be interesting to see what difference it will make in games depending on who was declared war upon first - Pinks, olives, or blues. I will be checking the next spoiler for what becomes of these different groups.

I split this into a seperate post, but wanted to show what my early exploration looked like, in response to Cracker's questions in the first post. Basically, I started with the two warriors from Seoul, one heading South, the other North. From the minimap I thought I was closer to the eastern edge, I should have sent someone there earlier. As you can see from the image below, my third and fourth warriors came from my 2nd and 3rd cities, respectively. (In keeping with the Korean theme, I looked up the Korean numbers and renamed some of my early warriors, to better track them for the QSC, so that is why they have strange names). Warrior Hana (1) went south, occasionally drifting to follow some hills, then started to follow the western coastline south around the Han, then along the southern coast, and finally came back up north through the Han area, until he died fighting a barb camp. (that was the only barb camp I saw on the mainland, and also no huts!!). Warrior Tul (2) moved North/Northeast, eventually following the mountain ranges to the north coast, then circling around the Baejke lands, and following the mountain range south again. Warrior Set (3), from Inchon, went SW past Seoul to follow the coast, because when I first spotted the barb island, I though there might be a land bridge. Warrior Net (4) went due east from Wonsan to find the Goguryeo homelands, then eventually went south to explore some more of the Han lands.

The other civs did not overly advertise their traits, other than the Goguryeo building one or two temples, and the Han having quite an extensive road network (Industrious). The Baejke did not build any culture until after I had 4-5 libraries. I was easily dominating the culture, as I whipped or prebuilt for several libraries, completing 4 within the first 4 turns after literature.

As far as the terrain, it seems quite similar to real Korea, mountain ranges divide the country, channeling most movement along North-South corridors. Good city locations are there, but not in large clusters, this was the wrong map to try to do an RCP for the first time. I got one "ring" of 4 cities in, but most of the rest was squeezed in whereever I could. We will see how effective it is later.

Here is my map of my exploration, up through 1750 BC, after which it was filling in gaps. By the time I got Mapmaking, I basically had already explored it all anyway.

Ahhh... Justus, you have the answer... The pinks were hiding their iron under Taejon in my game as well. Wish I'd known that earlier. :/

Edit: By the way dojo, nobody is getting along in my game. I wasn't agressive either. I refused the Hans when they made a demand early on and declared war and then I got the olives to fight them and it was mass-bloodshed and mayhem for a long time after that. I was shocked that the olives went from allied with me one turn to allied against me the next. I figured I could just forget about the Hans with them fighting for me.

No wonder my war against Pink petered out so quickly. They had hidden iron!

Originally posted by Owain

Edit: By the way dojo, nobody is getting along in my game. I wasn't agressive either. I refused the Hans when they made a demand early on and declared war and then I got the olives to fight them and it was mass-bloodshed and mayhem for a long time after that. I was shocked that the olives went from allied with me one turn to allied against me the next. I figured I could just forget about the Hans with them fighting for me.

Click to expand...

I'm giving in to every demand, forgoing the desires of earth for the treasures of heaven. I'm leading a small christian sect of Koreans who met Paul, or whomever headed east, somewhere along his journey.

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man
Easter eggs? well, I noticed that for the last few GOTMs, some cities have been named after players. E.G. in Vikings, there was DaveMcwargborg, now here there is Qitaigyon. Are they named after the person who won the GOTM last try? I am not sure.

Click to expand...

In each GOTM game that we play, the players from the most recently closed game who scored in the top three positions are honored by having cities name after them in the new game.

I try to name the cities in a style that fits in culturally with the linguistic naming style of the civ being played so that they would fit in as if the Great player were being honored by the people of the civ by having a city named after them.

Sometimes an extra city will be inserted to acknowledge and honor the work of a Civfanatics staff member.

As some past examples: in the Roman game (Gotm16) We had cities name LunaCantorium, NeoCaledonium, Gonzomonium, and Aesonesium.

The Baejke also had iron under one of their towns in my game. There are two easy ways to check if a civ has a resource that's not visible for some reason. One is to have discussions with them, and draw conclusions from the resources listing (or lack of). The other is to click for the terrain info on each of the civ's city squares.

Txurce,

Both good points, I usually do the trade window to check, but was careless this time because I hadn't seen any bushi from them until AFTER I took the capital, then they started to swarm!

Originally posted by Txurce
The Baejke also had iron under one of their towns in my game. There are two easy ways to check if a civ has a resource that's not visible for some reason. One is to have discussions with them, and draw conclusions from the resources listing (or lack of). The other is to click for the terrain info on each of the civ's city squares.

Click to expand...

The easiest method is Control/Shift/M. This removes all improvements and units so you can see what is hidden under any cities.

v1.27f

I check the F10 screen and find we are fighting other clans. That makes that screen worthless to decide if we have a nearby expansionist civ. I can't afford to gamble, so I have to go for pottery. 40-turn writing would have been much more valuable for trading.

1050 BC to 430 BC.
The first Han war begins. This turned into a total waste of time for me. I normally cave to demands with Civs I don't feel with fighting. I screwed up on this one as I didn't think an alliance against them would be cost prohibitive.

The game luck doesn't go my way as the Pyramids are built on another land mass.

50 AD - As much as I hate a despotism GA, I am quite glad to complete the Great Library. I don't know why I am so screwed up in the game, but I fell behind big time in the tech race. I don't usually have this much problem with tech at Deity. We gain the 5 techs and finally enter the middle ages.

The dates the clans are met:
Baekje - 3450 BC. For a large map I am surprise how close the capitol turns out to be.
Goguryeo - 3050 BC. I find a second point blank civ on a large map? Landmass of mystery is very correct description. This is breaking all the rules I expect for a large map.
Han Dynasty - 2350 BC.


I am not sure where I fouled up, but this is my worst start in ages in the GOTM. I only have six cities at 50 AD and may be challenged to simply win. I have no question that part of my mistake was breaking my always cave in early to demands rule.

Originally posted by cracker
Has anyone decided what the significance is of the choice of your early neighbors?

Click to expand...

Take the map and flip it over and it makes more sense.
Then you see the Han Dynasty to the north as the Chinese Hordes above Korea.
I noticed one of the other civs had a city name that is normally reserved for Korea - this is clearly a rival clan.
I suspect the third "clan" is also a Korean start.

As for the rest of the clans - F10 reveals a lot of Japanese looking names.