DG4 - Code of Law Framework

ravensfire · Oct 13, 2003

Code:

[b]Code of Laws (CoL)[/b]
Preamble
I.[color=red]  Office Duties
  A. Executive
    1. President
      a. Primary DP for game
      b. Coordinates all efforts
    2. Interior Minister
      a. Creates research queue
      b. Controls slider
      c. Develops settler plans
      d. Coordinates wonder builds
      e. Controls budget
      f. Controls all cities without a Governor
    3. Ambassador
      a. Coordinates trades with foreign nations
      b. Handles all diplomancy with foreign nations
      c. Coordinates espionage activities
      d. Tracks the status of foreign nations
        i. Attitude
        ii. Active Trades
        iii. Strength
        iv. Wonder progress
        v. Resources/Luxuries in foreign hands
    4. General of the Armies
      a. Controls all military troops
      b. Plans all military conquests
  B. Legislature
    1. Provincial Governor
      a. Establishes build queues for all cities
      b. Establishes labor allocation within cities
      c. Identifies rush requests and communicates with Interior
      d. Identifies needed worker tasks
      e. Works with Mayors for cities[/color]
  C. Judicial
    1. Chief Justice
      a. As current
    2. Judge Advocate
      b. As current
    3. Public Defender
      c. As current
[color=red]II. Define Legal Instructions
  A. Posted in Game Session Thread
  B. May be overridden by rep during session?
  C. "Will Of The People"
    1. Comes from where?
  D. Who may post "Official" polls
    1. Impact of "Informational" polls
  E. Input of citizens at chat
    1. When must the DP consult
      a. Process?
    2. May citizens override official instruction?
      b. When?  How?
    3. May official rep override posted instruction?[/color]
III. Citizen Offices
  A. Assigned to an Office
    1. President
      a. Chat
        i. As current
      b. Historical Society
        i. Maintains history of country
        ii.Ensures all game logs and game saves are properly saved and tracked
    2. Interior
      a. Geography
        i. Creates maps as requested by citizens
      b. Budget
        ii. Assists in researching budget requests
        iii. Identify possible, unrequested uses for budget and researches
    3. Chief Justice
      a. Election
        i. Schedules all elections
        ii. Posts debate threads
        iii. Posts polls
        iv. Identifies official winners
      b. Polling Standards
        i. Reviews all polls for compliance with standards
  B. Elected official of area responsible for actions of citizen group
[color=red]    1. May appoint new head of office
    2. ?? How to add/remove citizens??
    3. Active participation requirement?
  C. Actions may be overridden by elected official
    1. Must be done with good cause
  D. Each office must develop charter during first term
    1. Members of office should create
    2. Charter is to be reviewed by the Judiciary[/color]
IV. Chain of Command
  A. DP
    1. When is call made, and who makes it
  B. Deputies
    2. CoC for deputies
V. Delegation of Duties
  A. Delegates duties, not responsibility
  B. May delegate any minor task/powers
    1. Example:  Ambassador delegates analysis of luxury/resource of each country
    2. Example:  Ambassador delegates analysis only of trades
  C. Significant tasks/powers must be offered to Deputy first
    1. Example:  Ambassador delegates analysis/proposal/polling of trades
VI. [color=red]Absenteeism
  A. Define absence
    1. Known (posted in thread) vs Unknown
  B. May not remove leader w/ known absence
  C. How to remove[/color]
VII. Amending CoL
  A. Majority of citizens voting
  B. Quorum is Greater Concensus
  C. Pass review of Judiciary

Items in red are fairly undefined, and are of concern.

EDIT:
10/14 - duties section detailed; red expanded to entire section; offies duties expanded; items numbered

ravensfire · Oct 13, 2003

Again, remember this is a framework, and rather incomplete. Don't work on specific verbage, work on the ideas and concepts. Wording comes last.

-- Ravensfire

donsig · Oct 13, 2003

Define Legal Instructions
Posted in Game Session Thread
May be overridden by rep during session
"Will Of The People"
Comes from where?
Who may post "Official" polls
Impact of "Informational" polls
Input of citizens at chat
When must the DP consult
Process?
May citizens override official instruction?
When? How?
May official rep override posted instruction?

*May be ridden by rep during session* is not something I would support. First of all, it assumes all play sessions will be on-line. Second, it allows a leader/rep to just show up at an on-line session and give orders without first seeking the will of the people.

*Who may post "Official" polls* Any citizen should be able to post an official poll. The only reason we ever needed a distinction between official and informational polls had to do with PIs. There have been many instances throughout the history of the demogames where leaders or citizens would post last minute and / or very biased polls to try to push through some agenda. Throw up a quickie poll, get a plurality of votes and voila you can claim to know the will of the people when in reality you are only railroading your issue through. Another trouble with official polls is that a certain mindset developes where citizens and leaders begin to think that the only actions that can be taken are those backed by an *official* poll.

*Input of citizens at chat* is a touchy subject. I for one am against giving those who can attend the chat any more power than those who cannot attend the chat. This should be a forum based game and not a chat based game.

*May official rep override posted instruction?* Why even have this? Would a leader appoint a chat rep only to have his or her own instructions over-ridden? This begs the question of whether or not a leader can fire a rep. How would deputies fit into this? If the deputy is the runner-up in the election it is very possible that the leader and deputy could be at odds over policy making. Allowing for posted instructions to be over-ridden willy-nilly is asking for big trouble.

All the points raised in this outline are valid things to be decided. I do not point out the pitfalls listed above just to be negative. These are all points that have been debated at some time or another since DG1. I have seen many of the problems first hand and been involved in many of the discussions. If you all want to re-invent the wheel go ahead but you may benefit from listening to what some of us old timers have to say.

ravensfire · Oct 13, 2003

donsig,

First, thanks for your input - your experience will be most valuable.

You have highlightened some of the areas that have been raised as issues in the past. Rather than have them go unnoticed, I included them as an area that needs to be discussed. I'd rather argue about something now, before we start, than during a PI.

The subject of what is, and is not a legal instruction has been danced around, but not given proper definition. I think I've got most of the major issues listed - let me know if I missed any.

Please, continue to praise, critique, raise concerns or just laugh at ideas.

Thanks!
-- Ravensfire

donsig · Oct 14, 2003

I think you will find it very difficult to explicitly define a legal instruction. We did some work on that back in DG2 if I recall. It came up again in DG3 and the judiciary started honing a definition through judicial reviews. Trouble with that method was that the judiciary was highly politicized and was not consistent every term. The citizenry never stepped in to make any laws regarding the situation.

First of all, it is difficult to decide what a legal instruction is until you all decide if the demogame is going to be forum based or chat based. If you're going to allow chat over-rides and chat in structions then it will be extremely difficult to lay out a format for legal instructions, let alone try to sift through who made what decision when during a chat.

Secondly, unless the authority of each leader is explicitly laid out - with no overlapping of authority - you're asking for trouble trying to figure out which instructions are legal.

I prefer a forum based game so I'd say it's best to stick with an instruction thread. That concept was developed back in DG1 and has served well ever since. Instructions must be posted in the instruction thread by the proper leader (or deputy) by a given time. They must be proper instructions under the domain of the leader posting. (Governors can't order military units about, etc.) Now, what about the will of the people? Is an instruction legal if it goes against the will of the people? If you answer yes then please be prepared to tell us how you know what the will of the people is!

Well, I think you get the idea.

Cyc · Oct 14, 2003

Excellent work here, Ravensfire. I'm so glad you joined the DG experience. I do have a few thoughts, even if they are the thoughts of a retired lurker. The thought of DG4 starting up is exciting to me.

First of all, as I am an old-timer, I find I concur with everything the Honorable donsig has said so far. Many of the ideas in this document have been discussed, and then had those results discussed, then reviewed, then voted on, then tried, then accepted or rejected, only to be discussed again. It's maddening, I know. I have been fairly involved in the law making process for the Demogame prior to DG3. But when I heard we were going with a relaxed structure Constitutionally, and bailing on the DG2 Books, I stayed away, as I saw confusion and apathy in the days ahead. The Three Books had their problems, but they needed to be fixed, not trashed. That's just my opinion. Maybe that's where donsig and I drift apart in our opinions. I feel that the Three Books were the starting point which you now seek. From that point where DG2 ended was where the "re-construction" needed to begin.

I also understand that you'd like to change the basic format of the DG experience, such as changin to 4 Leaders. If you have sweeping changes in mind that will cut at the heart of the DG ways, then starting anew constitutionally would be the path to take. Is that what you want to do? Or is it just an idea? I think you need to address that question.

As far as this document, (I wish you had numbered it

), the section between the lines "Elected official of area..." and "Charter is to be..." isn't needed and is contrary to the the goal of game enjoyment, and needs to be stricken from this document.

Defing a Legal Intruction: If the Leader posts an instruction in the TC Instruction thread and that instruction is not contrary to any Official Poll, it is a Legal Instruction. Keep in mind that Governors are Leaders too. Any Legal Instruction may be ignored by the DP, but then must face repricussions. Any Legal Instruction may be reviewed Judicially after it has been carried out by the DP, and if fault is found then action may be taken against the Leader, but if at the time when that Instruction is to be carried out it is not contrary to any Official Poll, it is a Legal Instruction. Fairly simple. We were just getting to that point when DG2 ended.

Absenteeism has been talked to death. I believe the "Known - Unknown" thread is a suitable answer, as long as all the duties are covered before that person leaves. If the duties go unattended for two TC's then a vote should be taken to oust the Leader and then the President should do just that if it is the result of the poll.

Whatever on the 4 Leaders thing. I hope it works out for you.

Cyc

ravensfire · Oct 14, 2003

donsig, you raised the question of is this a forum-based game, or a chat-based game. It's a good one, I think I'm going to open a thread soley to discuss that.

Thread for forum vs chat

-- Ravensfire

ravensfire · Oct 14, 2003

Originally posted by donsig

Secondly, unless the authority of each leader is explicitly laid out - with no overlapping of authority - you're asking for trouble trying to figure out which instructions are legal.

Very good point.

Part of my decision to go with four executive offices was to eliminate some of the overlap we do have. We have one person in charge of military. One person in charge of everything inside our borders, including science and slider control. One person in charge of everything outside our borders. And finally, one person to coordinate all of this, and serve as primary DP.

The lines of responsibility are clearly defined and the structure is simple. While there will always be a need for cooperation (escorting settlers, etc), this should simplify things.

-- Ravensfire

ravensfire · Oct 14, 2003

Initial post updates - see EDIT at bottom for changes.

Numbers coming - be patient!

-- Ravensfire

zorven · Oct 14, 2003

Just a couple of thoughts :

(I know we are early in the process, so I may be jumping the gun on this)
In some cases, words like coordinates and develops may be too vague. For example, the Interior Minister "coordinates wonder builds". To me, this is vague and could be interpreted as the IM not having any authority to have a wonder built. I think what you mean is that the IM determines what wonders are to be built and where, and the governor must comply with the order. Or not. In any case, we need to be specific in these areas.

This may be the wrong place to discuss this, so if it is we can open other thread. donsig got me thinking awhile ago, and I like what he said. The legislature has the power to pass Laws and Procedures. However, I think there needs to be another layer: Resolutions. For example, a Resolution is proposed and passed to declare war. A Continuing Resolution is passed that requires a minimun Science Slider of 10%. Another Continuing Resolution is passed to define the border of a province. Notice there are 2 types of Resolutions: a standard Resolution and a Continuing Resolution. The standard resolution is something that happens that cannot be reversed by another resolution. In the example abover, declaring war. Or perhaps a Resolution that states where a city is to be built. Continuing Resolutions are ongoing until such time as another Resolution or Continuting Resolution are adapted.

DG4 - Code of Law Framework

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

donsig

Low level intermediary

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

donsig

Low level intermediary

Cyc

Looking for the door...

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

ravensfire

Member of the Opposition

zorven

12,000 Suns

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