Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)

Celeborn · Oct 27, 2003

LotR Thread I:
LotR Modders UNITE!!! Half-way-point.
LotR Thread II:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54134&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=4 Half-way-point.
LotR Thread III:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (cont) Half-way-point.
LotR thread IV:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (4) Half-way-point
LotR thread V:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (5)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60650 Half-way-point
LotR thread VI:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (part-hex)http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63116 Half-way-point
LotR thread VII:
Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (septa)[latest]http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64619 Half-way-point

Once more it is unnecessary for the regulars to read this part, feel free to skip it. We started working on this .mod as a gathering of Modders, who had an acute interest in Lord of the Rings and Middle-earth. This is a continuation of seven threads created, as seen at the Links above. We made some significant progress in actually working together to make a collaboration of ideas, to please everyone. The more we professionally discuss our varied beliefs, the closer to the end we will be. As each thread goes by we gather more of these 'LotR' modders.

Thread Log
-In the Third installment of our collaboration, significant work was completed on the buildings\wonder\improvement front. Unfortunately it was sort of sporadic, and it's hard to define just what we did . Discussion of the maps also took place, at which point Yoda Power offered to make an older version of Middle-earth, you can see this here.

-In the Fourth thread, we have gathered some new blood, and discussed about how to implement certain civilizations into the game, namely Isengard and Rohan. We set our course to make it clear, to stomp on the sporadic-ness of the third thread.

-In the Fifth thread, more new blood, significant progress in accumulating graphic designers, and a recession, in which the new blood has expressed their long bottled up opinions on how the mod should go. Talks on the tech tree in a forum based discussion has been put off for a bit. We should let the new (and old) idea's re-circulate, meanwhile, chat based discussion will take place at undefined periods, then re-introduced into the sixth installment of the thread.

-In the Sixth thread, believe it or not more new blood, and many of them CFC 'old-timers'. The tech tree thread should be getting a tech update, to initiate discussion about how to branch the tree itself. Lots of opinions have been rattling around, and we have gotten even more beautiful works and ideas from the unit creators\graphic designers.

-In the Seventh thread, we have developed a secure style of going about making the .bix. And that is by going tab-to-tab. For instance, we already covered the Citizen and General Settings tabs, allowing us to go in depth with the mod. Civilizations are agreed on, and soon we will start on the Civilzations tab.

The near future should hold these tabs-
1.) Governments
2.) Civilizations
3.) Natural Resources
4.) Combat Experience
5.) Culture
6.) Terrain

After this is completed, we will be exceeding 50% completion with the mod. We will attack improvements, technology, and units around the same time, being the biggest hump to get over. After all tabs are completed beta testing will commence.

FAQ
What is going to be in the MOD? When will it span? What are the Civs? Has work started yet?
1.)When will it span?
Well, we decided that the Mod should start slightly before the coming of man. Like this:

Era#1 First Age (middle-late first age, with the arrival of man)

Era#2 Time of the Rings (Elven supremacy and Saurons Power)

Era#3 Time of the Númenóreans\Dark Age (Supremacy of Man, Numenor and it's later subdivisions\Last Alliance)

Era#4 Third Age(Best known, time of the peace, yet weakened state, time of the fellowship)

This way it wont be strange to have all civs in existence, and yet it still has the remarkable, mythological old middle-earth in tact.

2.)What are the Civs?
To start out, we will have less civilizations than vanilla civ3. Civilizations are a problem because of lack of cities in Middle-earth. Feel free to post on this topic at any time! This is what we have so far:
1.) Gondor
2.) Arnor
3.) Numenor
4.) Rohan
5.) Northmen
6.) The Shire
7.) Noldor
8.) Sindar
9.) Moriquendi
10.) Blue Mountain Dwarfs
11.) Mordor
12.) Angmar
13.) Isengard
14.) Southrons
15.) Easterlings

(Thanks [Ant]Wimp)

A few important Civs we have made lists for can be located here:
The Shire
Gondor
The Dwarves
Mordor
High Elves(Noldorian)

Some civs that may or may not be added, or ones that are not finished yet, can be found here (thanks SoCalian) :

Valinor
Haradrim
Numenor
Rohan
Arnor
Dale
Ossiriand
Mordor and Angband -SoCalian
Gondor-SoCalian
Hollin-SoCalian
Lorien - SoCalian
Ents-SoCalian
Dwarves -SoCalian
Haradrim (Plexus)
Mirkwood Elves (Plexus)

Thanks SoCalian!

3.) What is going to be in the MOD?
We plan on numerous versions of the Mod, most important first.

Mod Types

Random Map Mod (regular)

Middle Earth- Map of Middle Earth, with specific placed things (like dragons)

Lord Of the Rings quest- (You can only choose out of 3 Civs, though the rest make an appearance, but depending on the Civ you choose, you have a specific Victory cond.)

Older version- This will have modified ages, and different civs, such as the Vanyar, and unique buildings\wonders.

4.) Has Work Started on the .bix yet?
Yes, Celeborn has been working on the .bix for quite some time now, And a communal .bix has been underway in the forums also.

5.) I would like to join in this project, is there anything I can do to make the production go faster?
Well, we will always have need of those talented artists. If you would like to make some building graphics, just pick one off the list below, but make sure work on that hasn't already started or been completed.
If you would like to make units for the game, certain ones we are looking for are:

Silvian Archer\Elven Archer
Thanks embryodead!!!

Troll
We already have the Cave Troll, and this unit is great, but we would like to use an early offensive unit that would act as one of the expensive 'behemoth units' for Mordor, similar to the Cave Troll, yet smaller, but more lithe.

Elven Cavalry
Thanks again embryodead!

Dwarf Defender
Possibly a complement Kindreds High Guard.

Dwarf Offensive
Another complement to Kindreds unit, this time the Ironbreaker, probably heavy armor. Somewhat like the Dwarves of Belegost, with a metal mask\helmet to protect them from heat and flame?

Dwarf Archer
We know from accounts that the Dwarves used missile units in defense of their towers in the days of old. This Archer would probably be heavily armored, and not agile. A more defense oriented unit.

Another Dwarf
A fast runner, think Dain and the dwarves from Iron Hills. A pickaxe and a shield would be very cool.

Medieval Worker
A worker, more heavily clothed than the Civ3 counterpart, yet still more 'medieval' than the Civ3 Modern Worker.

(Thanks Mrtn)
Of course, beggars can't be choosers, and we would take anything LOTR (or similar) you throw at us!

Text
We would also appreciate civilopedia entries, but we can't comment on those yet.
-end FAQ

Resources
Strategic:
Iron: +2s +0f +0: mountain, hills
Horses: +1s +0f +1c: Grassland, Hills, Plains
Timber: +1s +0f +0c: forest
Stone: +2s +0f +1c: mountain, hills
Wolves: -0s -1f -1c: tundra, forest

Luxuries:
Mithril: +4s +0f +4c: mountains
Wine: +0s +1f +2c: hills\grassland
Pipeweed:+0s +0f +2c: grassland\plains
Salt: +0s +1f +2c: hills
Gems:+0s +0f +2c: hills\mountains
Gold: +0s +0f +3c: hills\mountains
Wool:+1s +1f +1c: hills\grassland
Lebethron:+0s +0f +2c: forests

Bounus:
Wheat:+0s +2f +0c: grassland\plains\flood plain*
Oliphaunts:+2s +0f +0c: plains
Coneys:+0s +1f +0c: forests\grasslands\plains\hills
Deer:+1s +1f +0c: forest\hills\mountains
Cattle:+1s +2f +1c: grassland\plains
Fish:+0s +2f +1c: coast\sea
Silver:+0s +0f +2c: hills\mountains
Taters:+0s +2f +0c: grassland
Mushrooms:+0s +1f +0c: grassland\forest
Wasetland: -1s -1f -1c: Wilderland

Unit Lines
A word on the difference between civilizations unit lines in the RTF file. If you would like to download the Unit lists, you can do so here, they are available in two formats, the first being of better quality, the second is the lists straight forward, in standard text format.
Word Pad-Rich Text Doc.(Recommended)
Standard Text Document

Other CFC LotR\fantasy oreinted threads to look at, in no paticular order:
Embryodeads WH MOD!
Embryodeads Fantasy Units Preview Thread II
Unit Preview Thread:LOTR
Middle Earth Map
ME: Lord of the Mods (Tech Tree)

Yoda Power · Oct 28, 2003

Medieval Worker
A worker, more heavily clothed than the Civ3 counterpart, yet still more 'medieval' than the Civ3 Modern Worker.

Embryo you know you really need this too in your mod(hint

)

[Ant]Wimp · Oct 28, 2003

Originally posted by embryodead
...
This is pretty much the same, just without this aqueduct requirement:
City size 1 - 10
City size 2 - 60
City size 3 - 100
Walls +50 (city size 1 only)
Keep/Castle/Tower +25* (no req.)
Fortress +25* (req. keep & "hospital", thus city size 3 only)
* - just a guess/proposition

This seems to work fine. And if this doesnt work, lets at least try n keep it simple. No 'two building lines' imho...

embryodead · Oct 28, 2003

Originally posted by [Ant]Wimp

This seems to work fine. And if this doesnt work, lets at least try n keep it simple. No 'two building lines' imho...

There is nothing here that could not work, that's why I posted it

@Yoda
I collected some worker props to try something in the future, though the medieval worker is really a lot of work and personally I see no problem with the ancient one.

RRnut · Oct 28, 2003

Hello,

Well, It seems like we ended up with something about the same as ordinary civ.

However, I'm still rather worried. Perhaps it is not so much with these defense bonuses. I went back yesterday and read the first two threads for the mod. It seems like, from looking at the information there, that offense will be seriously limited by the frth age. Take for example the mannish units. The best defender is the Armored Pike at a defense of 6, and the best offence is a Long Swordsman with an attack of 7. However, giving the Pike a defense bonus of over 200 % (fortified in a metro with the improvments and being attacked over a river) will make its defense 18. therefore we have a 7 attack unit attacking an 18 defense unit, and it can't even retreat. this will require something like 6 to one -- its about the same as cavs figting MIs in the open. In other words, once hospitals come about, any capturing of cities will be virtually impossible.

Oh well. I'll be away until the beginning of next week, starting tomorrow, so I can insert my own opinions in here any more. <grin>

RRnut

embryodead · Oct 29, 2003

RRNut,
I believe that unit stats were only proposals, and they will be completly different in the final version. If I had a vote on that topic, I would not make so big differences in stats (I don't like the idea of long swordsman being so much superior to warrior with axe, it's not like warriors vs. rifleman), and make the attack values from 50% to 150% higher than the defense.

PCHighway · Oct 29, 2003

embryodead-
There is nothing here that could not work, that's why I posted it

Just as long is your happy with size one cities building Citadels, and getting a 175 defense bonus

.

embryodead-
RRNut,
I believe that unit stats were only proposals, and they will be completly different in the final version. If I had a vote on that topic, I would not make so big differences in stats (I don't like the idea of long swordsman being so much superior to warrior with axe, it's not like warriors vs. rifleman), and make the attack values from 50% to 150% higher than the defense.

I agree that they will be different, but I highly doubt the first era offensive will have 2 attack, and the defender 1 defense.

As much as I like your mod, which now is the only civ3 I play, but this is one aspect I think you need to fix. Having few defenders makes the game easier, or harder. I was playing a game as the Dwarves, and with my 8 Troll Slayers I was able to wipe out Albion, who had twice as many cities as myself. Not to mention tons of those axe-throwing guys. The AI doesnt handle such leaps well. I sort of felt like I was fighting with only longbowmen, low on defense, high on attack.

Moreover I think we should try and make this game similar to Civ3, whos combat as you said earlier, is fine as is. And while the difference between a half naked warrior with an axe, and a half naked warrior with a spear isnt as pronounced as your example, it should be so. The Defensive line should be cheap, and easier to build. Yet they will be slow, and have bad attack, making them useless for anything but defending. There are tons of other games based on ancient or medieval combat. Why should a militia unit in Age of Kings have only 3 attack, while its final upgrade (champion) has 16? To make the game more interesting, otherwise, why would you upgrade in the first place?
Thats why we are all here, isnt it? To reproduce LotR in a civilization mod? Realistic or no, I think a heavily armored spearman\pikeman should be able to kill a charging knight\axemen. Just like regular Civ3

.
As I said earlier, we will have to test it.

Here is another tab to argue about

.
Combat experience. I threw this is just to make us feel like we are accomplishing something*ahem*. What sort of names do we want? How should the HP and retreat bonuses be distributed? Once again, my suggestions.
As you can see they were influenced by WH

:

Conscript-
I think we should raise this ones retreat bonus to that of a regular. That would mean it goes from 34 to 50. Since drafting will be a rare occurrence, I am told. And it will probably be a civ advantage for Gondor, The Shire, or Mordor. I see nothing really wrong with conscript, but it does sound modern. I have an idea, but it might be a little over the top. All the same I will bring it up later.

Regular- Change its name to Trained? Keep its life at 3, keep its retreat bonus at 50, IMHO.

Veteran- Boost its life to 5, but keep its retreat bonus the same, my suggestion. Why the boost to five you ask? I think it would be more realistic if a unit that actually fought and gained valuable combat exp. should be significantly better than a regular. Throughout history they were acknowledged as so. This would make barracks a key point in the game. I was thinking that barracks wouldnt come until the middle\late second era. Taking a tip from TAM, your palace, thus your capital would be the only place veteran units would be produced at. We could even give the defenders when barracks come -HP. This would make the offensive units more pronounced. If only there was a practical way to implement it...

Elite- Boost this one to 6, add +8 to the retreat bonus, making it 73. IMHO

Now the idea I mentioned earlier, is all about names

.
To make it seem more epic we could call them by skill. So it would be-

Conscript = Regular
Regular = Trained
Veteran = Great
Elite = Legendary

Thus a message would appear like so: Our Trained Swordsman is now Great!

Great Swordsman, Legendary Swordsman... I like the sound of that.

Maybe we can change something for the units that produce a leader? For instance, instead of having it: "* Elite Durham the Slayer". We could change the '*' to 'legendary. So it would be Legendary Durham the Slayer? nah, scratch that idea. It wouldn't work unless we adopted embryodeads 'space' thing for the Elite units. :undecide:

embryodead · Oct 29, 2003

Originally posted by PCHighway
Just as long is your happy with size one cities building Citadels, and getting a 175 defense bonus.

Math!

We are using different names all the time, but from the example I've given, max. level 1 cities can get is 85. Even if the second defensive improvements give +50 not +25, then the max. is 110. Look that I still included your idea to have the best defensive improvement require the hospital equivalent.

As much as I like your mod, which now is the only civ3 I play, but this is one aspect I think you need to fix. Having few defenders makes the game easier, or harder. I was playing a game as the Dwarves, and with my 8 Troll Slayers I was able to wipe out Albion, who had twice as many cities as myself. Not to mention tons of those axe-throwing guys. The AI doesnt handle such leaps well. I sort of felt like I was fighting with only longbowmen, low on defense, high on attack.

Moreover I think we should try and make this game similar to Civ3, whos combat as you said earlier, is fine as is. And while the difference between a half naked warrior with an axe, and a half naked warrior with a spear isnt as pronounced as your example, it should be so. The Defensive line should be cheap, and easier to build. Yet they will be slow, and have bad attack, making them useless for anything but defending. There are tons of other games based on ancient or medieval combat. Why should a militia unit in Age of Kings have only 3 attack, while its final upgrade (champion) has 16? To make the game more interesting, otherwise, why would you upgrade in the first place?
Thats why we are all here, isnt it? To reproduce LotR in a civilization mod? Realistic or no, I think a heavily armored spearman\pikeman should be able to kill a charging knight\axemen. Just like regular Civ3.
As I said earlier, we will have to test it.

Honestly I don't understand. Not that I do not agree, I just don't know how does it relate to my comment. I was just pointing out that the difference between primitive and advanced units should not be so great, as if original civ3, since this is not about such breakthroughs like muskets or tanks.
To relate to your knight/pikeman example - I agree, but I also think, that unarmored spearman should also have a chance to kill charging knight. If you make so big differences between eras, then knight would smash militia just like tank would do that in civ3, while it should not be so. In WH, there are indeed subtle differences, but one point is enough to make anyone upgrade.
I don't really know what to do with the comment about my mod. Why not you go to my thread and help me?

I don't really got that from your message - what should actually be done? lower A, higher D, defenses, differences? I don't know what to argue about :sad:

though I'm happy you like the mod

Here is another tab to argue about.
Combat experience. I threw this is just to make us feel like we are accomplishing something*ahem*. What sort of names do we want? How should the HP and retreat bonuses be distributed? Once again, my suggestions.
[...]
Conscript = Regular
Regular = Trained
Veteran = Great
Elite = Legendary

Thus a message would appear like so: Our Trained Swordsman is now Great!
Great Swordsman, Legendary Swordsman... I like the sound of that.

I see one problem. We will have barracks or something of that sort, right? With this configuration, units that are actually untrained (no barracks) would be called Trained, and have 3 HP. Units trained in barracks, would be called Great, and have 5 HP. The HPs mean that veteran-producing buldings are much more important, but still, names look weird.
It's the elite status that can be gained through experience. At mid-game, you will have barracks everywhere, so the HP "jump" should be actually between veteran and elite. Though if you have some plan to remove veteran-producing buildings completly, then ignore my comment (I won't object, this may be actually interesting ie. this attribute could be given only to some heroic wonders).

I'll test the idea of changing [*] to "Legendary ", it's quite good. There is this symbol in labels.txt, I hope this is it.

RRnut · Oct 29, 2003

Hello,

Ok, I just wasn't sure how it would all work out. mabye I didn't read far enough into the threads -- only up to the second. I don't have anything to debate right now. I rather like the idea of eliminating barrackses, but would have to think about that.

RRnut

mrtn · Oct 29, 2003

I don't think the AI build as many barracks as a human player do. Thus having that HP advantage for veteran units would be "unfair" to the poor AI, who already have enough to worry about.
So, embryodead said something along these lines (IIUC):
Conscript 2 HP
Regular 3HP
Veteran 4 HP
Elite 6 HP

I like all the original names except Conscript, I think Great and Legendary sounds a bit cheesy.

Rename Conscript to Poorly Trained Rabble, or PTR.

Renaming * sounds cool. :thumbsup:

BTW I posted civilopedia icons for some resources we need (Silver, for example) yesterday, and also a new pedia icon for the Harbor (we don't want the modern steel mesh, do we?

). Check my sig for links.

PCHighway · Oct 30, 2003

embryodead-
Math! We are using different names all the time, but from the example I've given, max. level 1 cities can get is 85. Even if the second defensive improvements give +50 not +25, then the max. is 110. Look that I still included your idea to have the best defensive improvement require the hospital equivalent.

I thought we were going to have three defensive buildings?
The minimal (Never said I was good at math

):
85+30(fortify)+10(grassland)=125
The maximum(?):
110+30+20(hills)=170?

embryodead- Honestly I don't understand. Not that I do not agree, I just don't know how does it relate to my comment. I was just pointing out that the difference between primitive and advanced units should not be so great, as if original civ3, since this is not about such breakthroughs like muskets or tanks.

I was trying to say that there should be large difference between first era defenders and 4th era defenders capabilities? Did I misunderstand you?

embryodead-
To relate to your knight/pikeman example - I agree, but I also think, that unarmored spearman should also have a chance to kill charging knight. If you make so big differences between eras, then knight would smash militia just like tank would do that in civ3, while it should not be so.

I believe would should make large differences in the stats, and through my eyes, militia should instead get and upgrade, instead of remaining the same for the entirety of the game. This would allow us more modability. The higher the attack and defense values, and the larger the leaps, the more we can change. But as you say, balancing between these will be a precarious one. If we are going to have 4 lines (light infantry, cavalry, infantry & missile), as previously suggested. This way we might be able to solve our problem. If we have four lines constantly evolving, chances are you will have one 'top of the line' unit in your army, able to combat the enemies best unit?

embryodead-
In WH, there are indeed subtle differences, but one point is enough to make anyone upgrade.
I don't really know what to do with the comment about my mod. Why not you go to my thread and help me? I don't really got that from your message - what should actually be done? lower A, higher D, defenses, differences? I don't know what to argue about though I'm happy you like the mod

You don't want me going and messing up your thread with my spam! And that doesn't take a "quantum mathematician" to figure out

. But how about this, I can write up a MTR of my favorite civ (Karaz-Ankor :mischief:

) and PM it to you? My comment was most certainly not meant to offend. Truly your mod is the only civ3 I play, and I don't often replace my civ3X.bix.

embryodead-
I see one problem. We will have barracks or something of that sort, right? With this configuration, units that are actually untrained (no barracks) would be called Trained, and have 3 HP. Units trained in barracks, would be called Great, and have 5 HP. The HPs mean that veteran-producing buildings are much more important, but still, names look weird.
It's the elite status that can be gained through experience. At mid-game, you will have barracks everywhere, so the HP "jump" should be actually between veteran and elite. Though if you have some plan to remove veteran-producing buildings completely, then ignore my comment (I won't object, this may be actually interesting ie. this attribute could be given only to some heroic wonders).

All we need is an antonym for trained :hmm:

. Or not, maybe we should just get rid of that idea, I was trying to represent how a "well trained army" would be superior to an "untrained army".
Trained replaces veteran in MEM.

embryodead-
I'll test the idea of changing [*] to "Legendary ", it's quite good. There is this symbol in labels.txt, I hope this is it.

I just hope it doesn't crash the game. It may need the bracets around the name in the middle, however. But [Legendary] still beats and asterix any day, in my book

.

mrtn-
I don't think the AI build as many barracks as a human player do. Thus having that HP advantage for veteran units would be "unfair" to the poor AI, who already have enough to worry about.
So, embryodead said something along these lines (IIUC):
Conscript 2 HP
Regular 3HP
Veteran 4 HP
Elite 6 HP

Not to nitpick, but you are still giving a HP advantage for veteran units. As I said earlier if we want to be historically correct, we should give 'em the bonus. If the barracks comes later, I see no reason why we couldn't make it cheaper. Militaristic civs get half off, right? You rarely see Bismark without veteran units, do you? There is such a thing as 'peaceful boomer types' and military isn't the only focus of civ3. I think we just have to distribute the militaristic trait fairly, and it should be fine. But it might be to big of a leap, you are right.

mrtn-
I think Great and Legendary sounds a bit cheesy.

Hearken, the great one has spoken

!

mrtn-
BTW I posted civilopedia icons for some resources we need (Silver, for example) yesterday, and also a new pedia icon for the Harbor (we don't want the modern steel mesh, do we?). Check my sig for links.

Will do

.

Does this mean everyone is cool with the retreat bonuses?

Mithadan · Oct 30, 2003

Did anyone already suggest "Heroic" or "Rabble" for alternate predicates? Still probably cheezy, I'm afraid... :rolleyes:

embryodead · Oct 30, 2003

Originally posted by PCHighway
I thought we were going to have three defensive buildings?
The minimal (Never said I was good at math ):
85+30(fortify)+10(grassland)=125
The maximum(?):
110+30+20(hills)=170?

110+30+20 is actually 160

But hills are +50, so it should be 190

There are three buildings, but one available only to level 3 cities, remember?
As for the max. bonus - I wasn't counting terrain. Blame the hills

Level 2 defenses can be expensive (contrary to walls) so it will not be easy to build in small settlements, unless location is very good (mines and resources), then it's justified.

I was trying to say that there should be large difference between first era defenders and 4th era defenders capabilities? Did I misunderstand you? I believe would should make large differences in the stats, and through my eyes, militia should instead get and upgrade, instead of remaining the same for the entirety of the game. This would allow us more modability. The higher the attack and defense values, and the larger the leaps, the more we can change. But as you say, balancing between these will be a precarious one. If we are going to have 4 lines (light infantry, cavalry, infantry & missile), as previously suggested. This way we might be able to solve our problem. If we have four lines constantly evolving, chances are you will have one 'top of the line' unit in your army, able to combat the enemies best unit?

It's hard to argue about it, since we just have different points of view. I see such differences as uneven, since it makes the technology backward factions even more crippled, with no chance to defend. Unless you just want to double the stats, without changing the proportions (ie. there are no 1.1.1 units, but 2.2.1 etc.). (now I think that it might have been your point from the very beginning

)

You don't want me going and messing up your thread with my spam! And that doesn't take a "quantum mathematician" to figure out. But how about this, I can write up a MTR of my favorite civ (Karaz-Ankor ) and PM it to you? My comment was most certainly not meant to offend. Truly your mod is the only civ3 I play, and I don't often replace my civ3X.bix. All we need is an antonym for trained. Or not, maybe we should just get rid of that idea, I was trying to represent how a "well trained army" would be superior to an "untrained army".
Trained replaces veteran in MEM.

I don't know what MTR stands for, but sure I'd like it

As far as I see, Trained replaces Regular, not Veteran in MEM. Also, MEM gives the +2 HP advantage to Elites not to Veterans, just like I proposed.

As for the "Legendary" prefix - it doesn't work

The * in labels.txt must be something else. I tried to find other starts in txt files, without success. Tested in PTW 1.27, but I doubt they added this in C3C, since this feature is quite old.

I don't have any arguments against retreat bonuses.

Yoda Power · Oct 30, 2003

embryo is right about trained. The way I see it, trained units are those you build(train), and conscripts are the ones drafted.

embryodead · Oct 30, 2003

Originally posted by Yoda Power
embryo is right about trained. The way I see it, trained units are those you build(train), and conscripts are the ones drafted.

I'm right though I'm somehow against my previous statement

For me, trained units are those that come from barracks, though what's in MEM is ok, because of how conscripts and veterans are called.
I'd go for something like MEM, maybe with slight heroic addition:

Untrained
Trained
Veteran
Great / Heroic

SoCalian · Oct 31, 2003

I'v been away a while and don't want to read through all of the posts so could someone please post a short list of what work has been done in my absence, and what is currently being proposed.

PCHighway · Nov 1, 2003

Welcome back :goodjob:

.
Now we can be sure this thread won't sink

. You should read all the thread though, I believe you can put them in a printable format. Basically we are going by tabs, through the editor.
We did:
General Settings
Citizens
Combat Experience
And next up is Natural Resources.

Sorry for the slow reply, been busy recently. I will post an answer to embryodeads post in a bit.

RRnut · Nov 1, 2003

Hello,

I'm back. went away for a camp for a few days. about military levels:

Hmm. I've never downloaded mods with large hp bonuses. How well does 7 hps look on the game. 5 is already quite high? keep in mind that some of the stats include hp bonuses of 2 ps, making that 9 hps.

also, we have to think about battle length. It takes quite a long time already in the modern age when many units are fighting to finish battles. Any ideas on that regard???
As far as names untrained, trained, vet, and great sounds good.

The retreat bonuses are ok. imho youse guys had already decided to make cavalry less effective than infantry. therefore I think that retreat bonuses should be increased because there will be more times where retreat will be necessary.

Re: defense bonuses. Hmm. imho they are still too high. however, I'll just wait for playtesting and finilazation of the .bix

RRnut

AlcTrv · Nov 2, 2003

Yeah, thats a good point, cavalry is weaker so retreating will need to be easier if they're going to be useful

RRnut · Nov 2, 2003

Hmmmm. Perhaps up to a 100% bonus for elite??? Also, changing the bonus for conscript doesn't really make a difference. hence,

50% reg
75% vet
100% elite

RRnut

Middle-Earth: Lord of the Mods (octa)

Silver-Death

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Only goes to one thread.

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