Gotm25-Mongols Pregame Discussion

It is not possible for you to begin play at this time but you can strategize together about what you think you would do in the main strategic challenges of game.

This process should allow all the players to look over the setup instructions for the game and discuss what they think these instructions mean without the risk of any real spoiler information. Since none of the players will be able to start the game, essentially all you will have available to support your discussion will be past GOTM results and strategy articles.

The rules for participation in this discussion thread are simple:

1) read the game announcement and get yourself mentally prepared to play the game when the save game is released to you.

2) The basic game setup and map description have been announced on the scope of the game pages and you may freely discuss these features here. The specific differences between the three classes of play have not been posted but will be released at with the starting save files and will follow previous patterns of choice. The intent here is to focus on the general strategy overview issues that may be required to succeed in this game with this map and this civ, without diverging too much in the bonuses that will be placed in each of the three classes.

3) Once you download the starting save game file and open it to begin play you may no longer participate in this discussion thread.

I plan to leave this thread open to support pregame discussion for any players who have not yet opened the starting save game file but if we have any players who violate this rule the discussion will be closed.

Again there is a great deal going on inside and around this month's game, but at the core of the process the game is simple and fun. Read the instructions and you will have a good time.

An advance warning is appropriate because the setup files for all game versions are LARGE. This is because we are using this opportunity as our once a year chance to integrate a multi-unit (or m-unit) animation into the game that features four independent animations all in one unit. These four units are unique to the mongols and will be available to the netire community but GOTM players get to see them and play them first.

Be warned also that the first spoiler discussion will not open until November 5th.

The first spoiler discussion will require you to have a specific map visibility plus a specific number of contacts and complete the Ancient Age.

For most players, this game will feature FOUR different Unique Units for the Mongols so there will be a great deal of strategy to discuss. Each one of these unique units has similar abilities to units that you have already played but may have added horseback archery features of blitz abilities that will add significant gameplay choices to your game.

Here is your link to the

Game Announcement Page for Gotm25-Mongols

Here is also an image of the minimap of your Mongol Demi-God world to help you in your pregame planning:

Amazing start position. Which makes me think that most of the rest of the map is desert with little or no fresh water nearby. Still, I'll probably move the settler one tile NE to take advantage of the coast, if it turns out to actually be coast there. (The 3 lines next to the settler indicate that there's another unit, probably a scout). I may actually be able to finish this one, October's is probably going to be a no-submit because my closing turns are taking upwards of 45-50 minutes/turn because of the Large map size.

Rivals: 11 Preset/3 minor

Click to expand...

3 Minor? One more mystery. Perhaps normal civs, crippled in some way? (Maybe a UU of a settler that takes 100 shields, to slow down their growth).

Raging barbs, mystery landmass, 5 million geology. Indicates that early defense is probably important. But the raging barbs of XXIII-Arabs didn't turn out to be much of a problem for me, and in fact actually helped me in a few cases.

The UU situation confuses me slightly, but I'll probably be able to figure it out.


All in all, looks like the GOTM Team has outdone itself once again, setting up another 30 days of great gameplay!

To emphasize your Generalship skills, this game includes a package of 4 unique Mongol Horse Archer units to serve as the unique unit army set for the Mongols.

The first big question is which of these trips of GA? I am not sure at this time. I didn't see a clear answer on the announcement page. I don't want to trip a GA in despotism if at all possible.

Thanks Xevious.
Good question LKendter.
I'm also a bit confused by this "archery barrage abilities".
Does this mean the units have lethal bombardment?

This one sounds fun..I can't wait to experiment with these new units and see what all this means.

Originally posted by rabies

I'm also a bit confused by this "archery barrage abilities".
Does this mean the units have lethal bombardment?

This one sounds fun..I can't wait to experiment with these new units and see what all this means.

Click to expand...

I would think you treat them like land ships...the injured ones barrage the enemy one square away at a strength of 6 and NO possibility of getting damaged themselves, hopefully redlining the enemy, then a healthy unit attacks normally for the kill. Or an injured Elite unit finishes them off--LOTS of potential leaders here!

Do any of the units get the free shot at oncoming attackers like the Peltasts when on defense?

All 4 UUs require a Medieval technology, so you should be out of despotism by then.

Sounds like a victory by any of the 4 will trigger a GA, which actually gives us a bit of choice for timing.

[other comments about units edited out--they were wrong )


This is going to be a lot of fun, inless of course cracker has hid the horses from us

Originally posted by pterrok

Do any of the units get the free shot at oncoming attackers like the Peltasts when on defense?

Click to expand...

As I read it they all do. In addition three of them have offensive bombardment ability with one of them having single shot lethal ability.

Wow...this all makes it sound like the mongol units will be an unstopable force (by design?). I wonder what cracker has up his sleeve to make it a challenge?

Originally posted by King Of America
Looks like attack strength varies for most depending on whether you attack on the run or from standing still, although if Ordu Archer has an archery barrage A/D/M of 4/1/2, it may be that you can move 1 tile and then let loose with an attack of 4 (the 2/1/3 makes them a potent "mopping up"/"picking off weak units" threat).

Click to expand...

The 4/1/2 stats are more likely the unit's bombard strength/range/ROF.

It's good we are the ones playing as the Mongols, because the AI would have no clue how to use these units...

All UUs have a movement of 3 in common. This indicates lots of opportunities for hit and run type of attacks. They resemble Chinese riders, with bombardment ability compensating for lower attack ratings. Because they are all 3 movement it will be very easy to stack them together to form assault groups with reasonable defense and attack units mixed together. I can't wait to try them...

Now, Cracker wouldn't give these units to one of the other civs, would he? Could the 'minors' be rivalling clans?

Originally posted by rabies
Wow...this all makes it sound like the mongol units will be an unstopable force (by design?). I wonder what cracker has up his sleeve to make it a challenge?

Click to expand...

Um, I guess the trick is that the difficulty is Demi-god...

It seems like the other game we played at Demi-god was "easier" for me than a random Emperor game because of the way it was laid out. I bet this one will probably play much harder than Emperor for me.

It's probably something like we're deep in Inner Mongolia in a hidden valley a la Shangri La--our nice opening position will be surrounded by mountains 3 tiles deep all around. All the other major civs will contact each other quickly and so we will be way behind in techs when we manage to get a couple of roads out to release the hordes...

We'll find those '3 minor civs' near our valley and quickly overrun them and then have to use the great speed and abilities of our special units to subdue the rest of the world. If you have to leave the Middle Ages to get the Domination win you'll be out of luck for a good score. So I might focus entirely on the Great Library as the only thing to research since it'll get me all the techs I should need...

...but SirPleb will win at around 300 BC having never left Despotism since the govenment change would take too long!

5 wines at the start is excellent, but you only need three for a 4-turn settler factory so I'll likely build my second city pretty close to take advantage of the other two; I presume we will get the standard Mongol scout too to investigate further but as it is I'm moving the settler 1 NE to the coast/lake (a reference to Lake Aral in Central Asia perhaps ?)

The great thing about the horse units is that combined arms will be a must as none of these units will be able to defeat an enemy force of knights all by themselves, and the archery bombardment will be crucial for taking down enemy units. My goals then will be to build the Great Library so I can spend money on upgrades instead of tech and Leo's to make them cheaper; Sun Tzu won't be necessary as barracks are cheap anyway.
My guess is that the Turghaut and Khorchin will be the mainstay of my forces, the Turghaut for defense and Khorchin for attack. I'm wondering about the Korchin archers- though if they can always bombard at a rate of fire of 1, why would you build the Bagatur ? Blitz is great but more useful when the attacker outmatches the defender, and the Bagatur would more likely face pikes & knights on defense.

Anyway, roll on November 1 !

Originally posted by jack merchant
My guess is that the Turghaut and Khorchin will be the mainstay of my forces, the Turghaut for defense and Khorchin for attack. I'm wondering about the Korchin archers- though if they can always bombard at a rate of fire of 1, why would you build the Bagatur ? Blitz is great but more useful when the attacker outmatches the defender, and the Bagatur would more likely face pikes & knights on defense.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I can't find any reason to build Bagaturs. The Khorchin have equivalent bombardment and attack while the Turghaut have better defence. Meanwhile, both are cheaper than Bagaturs and can be upgraded from other units.

The Ordu Archer does have two advantages - the ability to bombard at a range of two and upgradability. Question: is it possible to move one step along a road and then bombard at a range of two? Even better.. two steps into enemy territory and wham!

I plan on mixing Khorchin and Turghaut at a ratio of about 85:15. I might throw in a few Ordu Archers (maybe quite a few) if one-step two-range bombardment is possible. I cannot imagine any reason to build Bagaturs.

As for wonders, the crucial one is clearly Leo. This will be the first game I have ever played where I built more than one or two archers.

The blitz ability for the Bagatur is actually very powerful, not for attacking, but for bombarding. A single Bagatur is like three strength-6 catapults.

But the unit that is most powerful here is the Khorchin. Disconnect your horses, build a gazillion Mangudai Bowmen (Archers), connect your horses, upgrade to Khorchin (you have Leo's, right? ), and repeat.

Build enough Khorchin and the AI will not have any chance. Move two tiles into his territory with 100 Khorchin and bombard his city until all his units are redlined. Then use a few more of them to finish off the defenders (even if they are musketmen) with minimum losses. Scary!

I think that the B/R/F stats for bombardment are Bombard/Range/Fire rate, or how many potential hp's damage it does. So the Ordu still only has a range of 1, but can potentially take two hp's out in an attack. That is their advantage, but it is not lethal bombardment. The Korchin only can do 1 hp, but it is lethal bombardment, so after the Ordu or Bagatur take them down to 1 hp, the Korchin can finish them off, without even attacking if needed. The Bagatur and Korchin have a bombard of 6, which is even better than catapults! The blitz advantage allows them to weaken their opponents before attack, or to finish off multiple units that have already been weakened.

My question is how promotions/leaders are handled, I don't think even lethal bombardment will result in a promotion, so I would imagine even after your archers weaken the opponents, you will want to go hand-to-hand to finish them off to get promotions and leaders. As Cracker mentioned, the Korchin can be used to try to kill select units (say the one musketman in a hill city), so your other attackers can get promotions by finishing off the spearmen and archers of your enemies!

Another question, I see on the Civfanatics homepage announcement it refers to Steppe Settlers, but I didn't see any mention of them in the game announcement. If I read it correctly, the UU's (other than the Ordu) can be upgraded to some type of Settler at the end of the Middle Ages (Military Tradition, maybe). Any thoughts? Would it maintain a higher movement? Could be useful to resettle captured lands after a lot of razing.

All this talk about new units has turned this poor Peanut's brain to paste. So, in an idle moment or two I produced a one page summary. This is a poor imitation of those great user guides that every budding fanatic has probably downloaded and laminated to have at their sweaty fingertips as they play.

So here it is as a zipped '.doc' file if anyone is interested ... please anyone take the liberty of correcting errors, or posting a more useful '.pdf' or '.html' version. Peanut's Simple Unit Summary

As for the game itself, I can just imagine that Cracker has put everything a young Ghengis Peanut needs to equip his horde right at hand. We have wine aplenty to irrigate so those keen Mongols can gorge on grapes, get sloshed of an evening and reproduce faster than locusts in the summertime.

Ah, yes ! It'll be a cakewalk ... except for the minor detail of Horses and Iron. Those will probably be placed two civilizations away with some fierce opponents right in the way.

I can just imagine Ghengis Peanut's Mongol Hordes, equipped with embarrassingly inadequate blunt stone axes and bronze spears, having to hitch-hike to the battlefield with some passing barbarian horsemen lest they miss their appointment with destiny.

Erm,

Just a quick question. It's taken a long time for me to work out why some of my bombards have never killed anyone as the literature supplied with the game is somewhat lacking. Is there a thread somewhere which lists which bombard units have a lethal bombard ability so I'll know not to waste my time.

Also, and pretty importantly, what is the blitz ability? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

Also, what does Zone of Control mean in Civ3?

Prior to PTW, no bombardment was lethal, meaning when you got to the last HP on a unit, bombardment had no effect. With PTW, it is an option in the editor, although under the default rules no unit still has the lethal option enabled. (Unless you want to count Nukes, which are a different animal). Within the list above, only the Korchin can use lethal bombardment.
The FAQ has a link to a more detailed description of bombardment, as well:

Bombardment Thread

Blitz is the ability for a unit to make more than one attack per turn, if they have movement points remaining. For example, a unit with movement of three could move one space, then make two different attacks (assuming it survives the first, of course!).

Zone of Control basically means that if an enemy unit passes adjacent to your unit, your unit gets to take one free shot at him as he passes.