The return of the killer Phalanx

While I am really excited about a new Civ I am very disappointed to hear they that dispensed with the firepower and hitpoint system of CIV2 (or the reactor system in SMAC).

In CIV1 one of the frustrating things was watching your brand new expensive Battleship, get killed attacking a 2000 year old Phalanx.

It looks like we will be seeing the same thing in Civ3 (although this time it looks like it will be Armor, units and not battleships.)
From what I gathered from the Strategy guide post, combat has taken a turn for the worse.

Tanks have an attack of 16 and modern tanks have an Attack of 24. Regular units have 3 hit points veterans 4 hit points and elites 5 hit points.

Ok so picture this, your cool regular German Panzer drives up to your opponents megapolis (size 12+) city. It is guarded by a single pikeman (or any other 3 defense ancient unit). The unit is old and has achieved Elite state. 16-3 you figure I'll take those odds. When your panzer gets killed you curse your luck, but you would be wrong.

According to some Excel spreadsheet calculations I did a Regular Panzer has only a 50% chance of taking out an Elite Pike man guarding a city. The Pikeman gets 100% bonus for being in a big city, 50% for being fortified and has 5 hits.

Now in CIV2 even a Veteran Phalanx Fortified behind city walls was killed by a tank 95+% of the time because the tank had 30 hit points and the Phalanx 10...

I sure hope there is some way of fixing this or my calculations are wrong.

that would really suck

Well they aren't called "Elite units" in vain.



Let's see..

The pikeman has defense of 9 then. 3 + 100% = 6 + 50% = 9, right?

The tank has attack of 16! I'm not quite sure how you calculated it but I think the pikeman won't have too much chance against tanks. Even if it's elite with 5hps.

edit: Now that I think about it, I think you might actually be right. If 20a vs 10d is same thing as 2a vs 1d, then tanks chances would be worse than a unit with 2a1d attacking 1a1d unit and if you add those hitpoints to this.. Well, we will see.

- i hopem not however they made big things to change this in civ2 and I dont reckon theyd let it come back in civ3: if they have chalk it down for the x-pack.

CTP was far worse - you could put a huge futuristic leviathon (apparenly bigger than a city) against a phalank and the leviathon would get seriously damaged

Wait a minute ! If there is a big problem for tank to win a battle against a spearmen which is fortified in a city then what you guys gonna say when a big bad Mech Infantry is Fortified !!! with their 20 defence ! Wow it seems cities will be unbeatable

Actually, in real life tanks are pretty poor against well-equipped + well-entrenched infantry in big city.

Can you say 'howitzer'?

Originally posted by Civ
Wait a minute ! If there is a big problem for tank to win a battle against a spearmen which is fortified in a city then what you guys gonna say when a big bad Mech Infantry is Fortified !!! with their 20 defence ! Wow it seems cities will be unbeatable

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1. Airpower
2. Naval Power
3. Artillery

Siege warfare will actually be pretty cool in Civ3.

You see,

Theres these explosive items called MISSLES,

they come in regular, OUCH!

and atomic, EEK!!

Let's see crappy phlanx and pikemen stand up to an exocet!

The pikeman has defense of 9 then. 3 + 100% = 6 + 50% = 9, right?

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Wrong

The way it worked in civ2 was: 3+(100%+50%) = 7.5

Also in civ2 there was no fortification bonus behind city walls and in forts.

Originally posted by Knigget


Wrong

The way it worked in civ2 was: 3+(100%+50%) = 7.5

Also in civ2 there was no fortification bonus behind city walls and in forts.

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Oh, it works that, haven't never really paid attention to it so much. Thank you!

I was figuring Pikeman defense as being 3* (100%+50%) = 7.5

So 16 to 7.5 is roughly 2-1 but the pikeman has a 5 hits vs 3.
Than you figure out the probablity that battle will go 3 rounds
(i.e Pikeman kill tanks and take no damage) happens about 4% of the time. 4 rounds, 5 rounds, all the way to 7 rounds.

I have no problems with a Veteran Mech entrench defended in a city being really hard to take out. You will probably need use an Army to avoid heavy losses or use combined arms artillery, airplanes etc.

But historically when a civilization has huge tech advantage over its opponents the losses are really once side armies. Spanish vs Aztec, US vs Indians, British vs Zulu, US vs Iraq etc. That is the way in worked in Civ2 and one reason I liked Civ2 much better than Civ1.

The other think that is strange is when you upgrade an army it loses is veteran or elite status. Which means you might as well not upgrade your Elite units, which seems counter-intutiative.

Small, nit, but the main reason the US creamed Iraq was superior air power and bombardment with bombers and missiles. Coincidentally, pretty much the tactic it seems we must use in Civ 3.

You're forgetting that units still have hitpoints. Yes, there's perhaps a 1 in 10 or 20 chance that a phalanx could defeat a tank. But the tank has at least three hit points (well, two if its a conscript). That means the phalanx has to win three times in a row! What are the chances of that?! (1 in 10)*(1 in 10)*(1 in 10) = 1 in 1000!!!

I don't think you have to worry.

I wish people would stop second guessing the world's most experienced turn-based strategy game designers and just play the freaking game (tomorrow) before they complain about this unit or that wonder. Some people have said they are going to turn Longevity into a small wonder because it will unbalance that game as a Great wonder. How the heck do they know that?! Play the game, then decide.

--LW

Originally posted by LoneWolf5050

I wish people would stop second guessing the world's most experienced turn-based strategy game designers and just play the freaking game (tomorrow) before they complain about this unit or that wonder. Some people have said they are going to turn Longevity into a small wonder because it will unbalance that game as a Great wonder. How the heck do they know that?! Play the game, then decide.

--LW [/B]

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I agree!

I'm just glad there IS a civ3!!!

They could get on top of the Tank and rip open the hatch and kill everyone inside, therefore taking over the tank!!!! ADVANTAGE PHALANX BABY :slay:

I don't think Firaxis is stupid enough to make tanks (or Panzers) get defeated by Phalanx. However, if the game is unbalanced, you could just edit a file and change the numbers, right?

Originally posted by LoneWolf5050
You're forgetting that units still have hitpoints. Yes, there's perhaps a 1 in 10 or 20 chance that a phalanx could defeat a tank. But the tank has at least three hit points (well, two if its a conscript). That means the phalanx has to win three times in a row! What are the chances of that?! (1 in 10)*(1 in 10)*(1 in 10) = 1 in 1000!!!

I don't think you have to worry.

I wish people would stop second guessing the world's most experienced turn-based strategy game designers and just play the freaking game (tomorrow) before they complain about this unit or that wonder. Some people have said they are going to turn Longevity into a small wonder because it will unbalance that game as a Great wonder. How the heck do they know that?! Play the game, then decide.

--LW

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The only problem with your argument, LoneWolf, is that the phalanx in civ3 has 3 hit points too, not 1 like in civ2.

So, it defends in a city just like Strollen said.

Lefty had a thread about this weeks ago, and we discussed the removal of "firepower", the defenders 'strike back' ability.

Battleships do not "attack" phalanx, in ground assault. They stand back 10 miles and bombard , out of range. This will now be possible.

A tank would not survive long against infantry in a city, that is realistic. But a phalanx would only stop a tank long enough for the crew to scrape them out of the tracks.

There should, and hopefuly is, some factor to balance this.

A 50% chance for a phalanx to wipe out an armored unit, even in the defense of a city, is plain stupid.

However, if the attacker fires first, 16 would wipe out the phalanx in one shot. I think...

Originally posted by D_L_26
They could get on top of the Tank and rip open the hatch and kill everyone inside, therefore taking over the tank!!!! ADVANTAGE PHALANX BABY :slay:

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ooops! The hatch is locked! Run!!!!!!!

:tank: :tank: :tank: :tank: :tank:

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Ya, I think there is something wrong with the calculations and I hope they make sure that doesn't happen.

However, there would be a small chance that an elite spearman could win. In order to become elite AND prevent being killed by other tanks, he would have the experience to do it. A well planned ambush is the perfect defence on a large or small scale.

Originally posted by joespaniel


ooops! The hatch is locked! Run!!!!!!!

:tank: :tank: :tank: :tank: :tank:

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Thats what they have short bronze swords for!!!!!!!!!