Do you want the new combat system?
New Combat System
- Thread starter BomberEscort
- Start date
nalves
sailing in a NAU
Yes !!!
I can now attack a spear
with no fear
I can now attack a spear
with no fear
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
I voted yes, because I think (hope) they have something up their sleeves to compensate for the apparent changes.
Greetz Jurimax
Greetz Jurimax
Masquerouge
Deity
Yes. I agree spearmen must have the ability to win against a Modern Armor, but it should be very very slim 
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
What is the new combat system?
Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
I vote "None of the above."
If there's a streakiness problem in the current system (I'm not sure if there is, but if ...), then it needs to be fixed; however, the proposed solution isn't the way to solve it. If there's a streakiness problem, then fix the random number generator.
If there isn't a streakiness problem, well, then the proposed solution is even more stupid than if there is a problem.
If there's a streakiness problem in the current system (I'm not sure if there is, but if ...), then it needs to be fixed; however, the proposed solution isn't the way to solve it. If there's a streakiness problem, then fix the random number generator.
If there isn't a streakiness problem, well, then the proposed solution is even more stupid than if there is a problem.
I like it, provided it has not unbalanced the game.
I suspect it has unbalanced the game though.
Epsecially with the added attack and defense of Armies, will a single Immortal Army (6 attack) now be able to conquer the entire world single-handedly?
I suspect it has unbalanced the game though.
Epsecially with the added attack and defense of Armies, will a single Immortal Army (6 attack) now be able to conquer the entire world single-handedly?
I hate the idea with a passion. An immortal army, as alexman points out, will easily be able to conquer the world. Immortals alone will be extremely unbalanced now. The system is pretty well balanced as it is and dramatically changing the system (and don't kid yourselves, this is a HUGE change) will upset that balance.
[As evidence of that balance, consider how many people debate swords vs. horses in the ancient age. They're close as is. This change will make that debate moot. Swords will clearly be superior.]
Note that the proposed change only affects streakiness by changing the odds of the stronger unit winning. Streaks where the stronger unit wins will now be more prevalent, not less. Streaks are a natural by-product of a good PRNG and every test I've ever seen actually run has indicated Civ3 has a good PRNG. People claim to know/see otherwise but NOBODY has ever proven or given any evidence other than anecdotal that the Civ3 PRNG is anything but correct.
The change is a bad idea, plain and simple.
Arathorn
[As evidence of that balance, consider how many people debate swords vs. horses in the ancient age. They're close as is. This change will make that debate moot. Swords will clearly be superior.]
Note that the proposed change only affects streakiness by changing the odds of the stronger unit winning. Streaks where the stronger unit wins will now be more prevalent, not less. Streaks are a natural by-product of a good PRNG and every test I've ever seen actually run has indicated Civ3 has a good PRNG. People claim to know/see otherwise but NOBODY has ever proven or given any evidence other than anecdotal that the Civ3 PRNG is anything but correct.
The change is a bad idea, plain and simple.
Arathorn
As I understand the new combat system, no, I don't *want* it. It looks like it will be incredibly unbalancing. However, remember that this patch is actually a *beta* patch. Imagine, a public beta test with thousands and thousands of testers providing feedback! I will be willing to install this patch for the things it fixes, and to test, and voice my opinion about, the new combat system.
@Dr. Elmer: There is a perceived streakiness problem. Those with a thorough understanding of statistics, probability, and RNGs seem to agree that the PRNG used in Civ3 is excellent.
@Dr. Elmer: There is a perceived streakiness problem.
Those with a thorough understanding of statistics, probability, and RNGs seem to agree that the PRNG used in Civ3 is excellent.
From what I understand of it, it's going to radically alter the playing field for combat calculations, and I do not want it changed. If a "fix" is needed for the dreaded tank loses to spearman situation (and I personally do not think it is a problem), then apply a combat modifier related to the unit's native era such as a +10% to every era ahead that the newer unit is to the older one, so modern armor would be +30% or so when fighting spearmen. As near as I can tell, the "de-streaking" will mean that swordsmen will almost always beat spearmen and tanks will almost always beat infantry.
How do you balance an immortal? If you give it any bonus attack, unless you start dealing in fractions, it's gotta be a 4. Else, what's its bonus?
How can you re-balance horses and swords, where swords now will win significantly more often?
If you re-balance as similar as possible to before, streaks will still be an issue, because the odds of their occurring only change by limiting randomness, not by changing attack/defense numbers (or numbers of time you check each combat round, which roughly equates to changing A/D numbers).
Limiting streaks can only be done by eliminating some of the randomness and that's a really bad design decision, IMO. "Oh. I lost the last two combat rounds. Now the odds are REALLY in my favor" or something very similar would HAVE TO become true to limit streaks. It can't be done.
What *can* be done to lessen tank/spear syndrome is to increase hps as some mods have done (doubling would work -- I wouldn't like this but I could deal with it) or some age benefit where each age a unit is ahead of the unit it's fighting gives a 10% bonus as was suggested in this thread. Either idea would help the complaints and shouldn't drastically break the overall combat system.
Arathorn
How can you re-balance horses and swords, where swords now will win significantly more often?
If you re-balance as similar as possible to before, streaks will still be an issue, because the odds of their occurring only change by limiting randomness, not by changing attack/defense numbers (or numbers of time you check each combat round, which roughly equates to changing A/D numbers).
Limiting streaks can only be done by eliminating some of the randomness and that's a really bad design decision, IMO. "Oh. I lost the last two combat rounds. Now the odds are REALLY in my favor" or something very similar would HAVE TO become true to limit streaks. It can't be done.
What *can* be done to lessen tank/spear syndrome is to increase hps as some mods have done (doubling would work -- I wouldn't like this but I could deal with it) or some age benefit where each age a unit is ahead of the unit it's fighting gives a 10% bonus as was suggested in this thread. Either idea would help the complaints and shouldn't drastically break the overall combat system.
Arathorn
bru
Prince
Keep it as it is, or if there is a demand to tweak it do not change the balance of the game!!
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
I'll vote after I see how it works. But if the projected effects are as great as they're projected, I'll be voting to keep the system as it is.
I think the best option is to make it a game preference.
You choose betwen fully random or the new system. That way the people who like living with the luck of the dice can have it their way, while those that want a more deterministic game can set it their way. More happiness all around.
Also if the new combat is "bad" then people can turn it off and keep with the tried and true.
You choose betwen fully random or the new system. That way the people who like living with the luck of the dice can have it their way, while those that want a more deterministic game can set it their way. More happiness all around.
Also if the new combat is "bad" then people can turn it off and keep with the tried and true.
Originally posted by alexman
Firaxis:
- Keep the new combat model.
- Release the 'beta' patch.
- Read these forums to see which units have become unbalanced.
- Balance the units in the final patch!
The problem with this is that I'd like to play a balanced version of the game, with the corruption bug fixed, over the Christmas break. So please either make the combat change optional, or release it as a seperate patch, so that those of us who aren't interested in trying out the new model won't have to.
kring
Asst Cook & Bottle Washer
Same here. We don't have enough information to know how balanced/unbalanced the change is.
If people complain enough about stuff before testing the change(s), Firaxis/Breakaway are going to be less likely to add or change other things.
Zamphyr
Master of the Pan Flute
Ah, yes. The concept a Beta testing.
Test, then decide
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Tough one. Must see it first in action.
Although to my play style, as I always attack with superior units, I think I'll win with this...
Although to my play style, as I always attack with superior units, I think I'll win with this...
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