Would this make the Industrial Age more interesting?

The Ancient and Medieval technology trees are very well designed. These ages offer a short branch that provides an advantage to the warmongerer (Monarchy and Cavalry), but the bulk of the ages' benefits come in the longer, "builder's" branches.

The Industrial Age does not provide such a choice. Builders and Warmongerers follow (or at least try to follow) the same predictable path: Steam Power, Scientific Method, Theory of Evolution, Hoover Dam, Tanks.

Would the Era become more fun and exciting if the prerequisite of Electronics were removed from Motorized Transportation?

If that were the case, the player would have to make a choice: do I go for Tanks as soon as possible, or do I build up my infrastructure with the Hoover Dam so I can produce tanks in greater numbers later? Do I spend my two free techs from the ToE on the expensive tech branch that leads to the Hoover Dam, or do I select the upper branch so I can be the first to Motorized Transportation?

You would get a similar choice as with the Middle Ages, except that the strategy would not be as extreme because cavalry can be upgraded from Horsemen, but you have to build tanks from scratch.

As it is now, I rarely use Tanks against an opponent who has Infantry, because Modern Armor is at most 5 techs away, and I need some time to build my tanks anyway. If Tanks don't need Electronics, it would give another choice: do I attack with Tanks, or do I wait for Modern Armor?

In a game such as Civ3, having alternative choices is good. In the Industrial Age, there is not much choice in terms of the research path. I hope BA and Firaxis will consider removing the Electronics prerequisite from Motorized transportation for the final patch.

It did always strike me as odd that after 2 carefully split tech branches, they would suddenly merge them all together in the Industrial. So odd, in fact, that I assumed there must have been a good reason. But I'm just not seeing it. Especially since Artillery & Cavalry can get you by in a pinch so effectively.

The fact that this change never made it into "Sirian's Tweaks" makes me even more suspicious that there's a good reason for it. Anyone care to enlighten us?

Where's the "Why? It wouldn't matter." choice? Everybody's going to go for ToE and Hoover because they're so powerful, regardless of whether Electronics was required for tanks or not. The "top" branch with Refining and Steel and such will take a long time to get through regardless. Plus, there's the fact that tanks, in some ways, aren't that large of an upgrade over cavalry (I hate going from 3 move to 2). I just don't think it would matter.

BTW, I disagree about the order of techs in the early IA. I like to go Steam, Industrialization, Sci Method, Electronics, then see...but I'm occasionally forced by circumstances into getting Nationalism early (need rifles for defense) or bee-lining to Replaceable Parts (which would come WAY before tanks anyway). But it varies a fair bit, and sometimes even the Corporation and it's stock exchanges is one of my highest priorities.

I just don't see that the change would matter much....

My $.02,
Arathorn

It will matter when the ToE and/or Hoover is already built, no?

It would also matter when you want to attack your neighbor ASAP before he upgrades his riflemen to Infantry.

If you think it doesn't matter, then so much the better. A smaller effect on gameplay is more likely to be implemented in a patch!

I would vote yes on this proposal. I would also vote to eliminate or reduce the value of ToE, which gives the human player a big advantage. Good idea, IMO.

Originally posted by alexman
A smaller effect on gameplay is more likely to be implemented in a patch!

Click to expand...

If this logic holds true, then maybe we'll get the Aerial View finished in the final patch too.

Originally posted by Arathorn
Plus, there's the fact that tanks, in some ways, aren't that large of an upgrade over cavalry (I hate going from 3 move to 2).

Click to expand...

Veteran Cavalry wins just 20% of the time against a veteran fortified Riflemen in a city. Against Infantry... forget it! A veteran Tank, OTOH, wins about 70% of the time against Riflemen in that situation. What good is the extra speed of Cavalry, if you have to bring Artillery to soften the defenders anyway?

If Electronics weren't required by Motorized Transportation, the best strategy would be to aim for Scientific Method, as before, because of the insane power of the ToE (which I think is another problem of the Industrial Age, BTW, but's that's for another thread). You would then have to decide if you want to shoot for Hoover, or if you want to get your tanks 2 techs earlier. A very interesting choice, IMHO.

I'd rather see combustion moved just after steel and refining, along with the WW1 style tank that it could produce--not as good as the current tank. Then have a WW2 style tank produced about where it is now. Heck, as slow as they were, a WW1 style tank could simply be a 1 movement unit that had a decent offensive punch.

The biggest problem with the industrial age is the total amount of dead technologies in there. Refining, Steel, etc etc. At that point in time, advances come so slowly, and all players follow the same path so there's no tech-trading to speed things up.

Alex nailed the problem on the head - there's no decision making required at all in the industrial.

Do i focus on military techs or play for the peacefuls?
Just do what everyone else does

do you build an army or improve your cities?
Who cares, you've got plenty of time to do both

What do i actually build in my cities?
Who cares again, there's plenty of time to build everything

Which military units should i build?
Well, seeing as how you've only got to choose between 1 defensive, 1 offensive, 1 mixed, and 1 bombarding, there's not much choice here either.

Do i play expansively or try to consolidate my territory?
There's no choice there, because the entire map is already claimed.

They should rename it from the 'Industrial age' and call it the 'Preperation for the Modern age' age instead.

If the lower branch isn't needed, then it's only useful, if you get the wonders, otherwise it isn't useful at all, so give them something else, maybe a government. Or I think you could make a new improvement like cinema to make the people happy to electronics.
On the other hand, I like the idea of having different paths in the tech tree.

Electronics is an odd tech for the Industrial Age. I know what the designers are trying to emulate, but the word 'electronics' just doesn't fit my image of the Industrial Age.

This removes the period of time when defensive infantry reign supreme and it becomes very difficult to attack and take cities (World War 1). Now people can just beeline to tanks and blow everyone away, especially those who don't have infantry yet.

You still need time to build your tanks from scratch (no upgrades), and without the Hoover Dam, you will build them more slowly. Compare that to the medieval age, where you can not only already beeline to Cavalry, but you can mass-upgrade your horsemen and attack immediately after you discover Military Tradition.

And don't forget Infantry requires just 3 techs from the Industrial Age, while Tanks after the change still require 10 techs. Seven techs difference are plenty of time to simulate WWI, if history is that improtant to you.

Also, keep in mind that Tanks were invented during World War 1, and the Tanks represented in the game were invented sometime inbetween the 2 world wars. This isn't a large time period

I beeline to scientific method and electronics to get hoover and ToE. Actually I like the old way better since I'm researching these any way I want the AI to be slowed down getting to tanks. So I vote keep it as it is.

Suddenly and old thread becomes relevant again! I think the change will be a good one. Coould be better, but its an improvement.

I like it as it is

Well, you can't make Tanks without Rubber, so don't worry about player of AI not being able to get infantry.

It won't happen.