Ongoing Citizen discussion: Slider settings

I'm starting this thread in the hopes that it will be used throughout the game. It is also my hope that our Senators, present and future, will use the contents of this thread to formulate and vote on slider setting proposals.

It is currently 2430 BC. Current settings are 10% science, 0% luxury and 90% taxes. We have two cities:

Deux Rivieres, size 3, all citizens content, 1 beaker, 8g
Grows in 3 turns, settler recruited in 3 turns.

Vandelay, size 1, all citizens content, 0 beakers, 3g
Grows in 2 turns, warrior recruited in 2 turns.
Worker, warrior, warrior queued after that.
Vandelay will be connected in two turns.

We'll have math in 7 turns.

There are wines to the east and incense to the southeast.

It’s 2150 BC, we have 3 cities, we have now completed Maths and are on the way to Writing with Science currently set at 90% to give Writing in 24 turns. I have noticed however that the Science rate proposed in the Senate thread for the next session is 10%, which would set us off on another 40 turn research rate, but is this what we want to do? I am a little surprised that I have seen no discussion on this - now that we can research faster than 40 turns do we want to?

We are currently researching Writing. At the current time the slider options we have are as follows:
This gives a full 18 turns difference between 100% and 10%.

If we stick with 40 turns we are expecting to buy our next techs with the cash we make, if we crank it up we will have something else to sell.

Now is the time to decide – do we stick with a 40 turn research rate, or do we increase it?

I like 10%. We are commercial, meaning more gold from the city-square. We aren't scientific, meaning difficult to research quickly. With 2 scientific neighbours we can never keep up. Unless we can obtain techs by buying them and selling around. Let's use our qualities !

I dis agree. I think we should go 100% Science and get writing in 22 turns. We have what? 262g? We are just going to become gold heavy and the AI will rip us on Tech prices. We can stay fairly close Tech-wise and buy the ones we need occasionally. We don't have to buy them all. As you can see by the 0-turn save, there are not a lot of Tech to buy. Let's go to 100% and see if we can barter a good deal with writing. After that we can reconsider.

I wish I had looked here before the Senate thread. I just made up the same chart Furiey made! Just thought I'd let everyone know that the current slider proposal is for 10% science, 0% luxury and 90% taxes. The proposal currently has the votes of two Senators - which is a majority. I have pointed out to the Senate that this proposal reverses their last instruction which was to set science at 90% once we learned math.

I agree with Cyc, we need to max our research now and try to get something the AI's won't go for, and then trade it one for many.

Good idea

I also think we should max our reasearch rate now to give us something to trade around. I hope that the AI also doesn't go for Writing.

What use is spare gold? i say max research, get literatur or something and go for the great library, then no research for 70 turns.

I didn't find this thread because nobody was posting slider suggestions to it. Does anybody know where the post Noldodan was referring to (in the Term 2 Senate thread) is on the forum? Nolodan?

Mr. Vice President,

The post Noldodan was referring to is here , in the Term 1 Senate. It is simply a proposal that was never acted upon by the Term 1 Senate.

Respectfully,

zorven
President of Fanatica

Personally, I think adjusting the Lux slider when a city might become unhappy is a waste of resources. It's a lazy way out. What a law, authorizing lux slider adjustment at the DP's whim, would do to future growth in several areas is a terrible thing. People we have 5 cities. What are you thinking? This is the lazy way out. Just because one city goes unhappy, because someone wasn't paying attention, shouldn't deminish the potential output of the other 4 cities. A simple hiring of an entertainer could solve the problem. This is just another play to give the President unbridled power towards mid-game. We should not be doing this.

Cyc, I agree that using the luxury slider can be a bit heavy handed if one city is rioting. However, I applaud the Senate for doing something to address a potential problem. To avoid using the slider, we need the Governor to give instructions that allow the DP to hire entertainers as needed. If that can happen, then the luxury slider will not be needed.

I will do my part in convincing Governors to include a statement such as that in their instructions. The Minister of Internal Affairs should also put a note in his Instructions covering any cities that may fall outside Provincial borders once they are set up.

Cyc, is "lazy" your favorite word for this demogame? What you you rather have? Minus 1-3 shields per city just because the city size tipped over the happiness level, or increase the lux slider to combat unhappiness, WHILE keeping the production (and growth!!!! The all-important factor) level the same? I can find you MANY people who would say having an entertainer in your is "lazy", since it shows lack of happiness management (slow expansion for the most part).

CT, if you had done your homework, you would have realized that I wasn't the one who initially used the infamous word "lazy". It was Peri. Strider has used it constantly since Peri's one time use. Get a grip, CT. 1. you can't hang things like that on me unless they're true. 2. we have 5 cities, if the DP can't adjust happiness on 1 or 2 of our MAJOR cites , I think we have a deeper problem than happiness controls.

What you consider lazy, is really not that important to me, CT. In regards to using a slider to dampen the Science and Taxation Rates when hiring an entertainer could relieve the problem locally and specifically, yes I consider that the lazy way of solving the problem. Hiring entertainers is part of the game design. It is a very effective means of handling unhappiness in a city. Slider controls have a much broader scope of use. One of them is preventing or relieving unhappiness when the population gets to extreme levels. I still say your move to get slider controls into the President's hands is a power move on your part and those who side with you.

If you and your people would concentrate on fixing the real problem, instead of using slacker moves to make the game easier for you when you run for President, the Demogame would be a lot better off. That problem being the President not getting adequate instruction for the Turn Chat. The first President had this problem and now the second one does too. Look at the Wheel trade. We still don't have the Wheel. Too bad we could'nt move a slider to fix that problem. It's better Instructions we need, and yes, more work from the Leaders.

I highly doubt the president *WILL* get adequate instructions. Ever. The more people who have a posistion, the harder it will be to get adequate instructions. What about when we have 20 governors (should that ever happen), and 1/2 don't post, or don't post often? Like I said before, it's hard to predict every game action in advanced. Personally, I think this rules are leaning towards being elitist, that is, you have to be a Charis or a Bamspeedy to even forcast 10 turns in advance. It's not there yet, but it's heading that way. Some people who are elected aren't even top level players -- they just want to have a fun, group game. Granted, us "old folks" have been around long enough to almost know what each other is thinking, or is going to say, or wants. New players might not know 100% what's expected, nor will they even know what to expect in the game.

Here's an example...

Back in DG1, when I won trade by default (thanks eyrei ), I knew about trade, but not to the extend that trades can change. I know that now (and so does Oct), but what's not always clear is HOW the trade will change.

Same goes for the slider. It's not always going to be clear how the science/income and happiness will be affected by more cities (and where they're located at that).

<hint of sarcasm>
So, why don't we just go ahead and bring a "Demogame Dreamteam" on?

Alexman for Domestic (he knows all about corruption)
Bamspeedy for FA (he figured out the AI relations)
Charis for Military (he's a great strategies, and the first military advisor of DG1)
Sullla and Greyfox for Trade/Science (they're both experts at tech costs and trading). Perhaps even Sullla could manage happiness as well.

</hint of sarcasm>

My point is, not every citizen who's elected is going to be able to post perfect instructions. Are we going to start asking, "How detailed are you?", "How well do you know the game?" during the elections? If we start to have this attitude of, "If you're not an expert at Civ3, then don't play", then that's getting very elitist.

As a citizen that's elected, I -would- be concerned about every single action or instruction, since someone might not like it. As a moderator in CFC (I know you hate that part), I'm concerned about this game heading towards being elitist and only allowing certain forum members to participate because a certain skill level is now required.

CT, we don't have to play a perfect Civ III game. It's ok if we don't always reduce the science slider when we're one turn away from getting a tech. Heck, I forget that alot in my own games. It's okay if we don't micromanage every city every turn.

If you're worried about the game becoming elitist then you should join us in ensuring that those who can attend the chat do not end up making the decisions!

Good point, donsig!

@CT: I was thinking along the same lines as Donsig. If the DP is playing true to the instructions and the instructions are not "perfect" we get a more interesting game. Winning the DemoGame then becomes improving the quality of play of all our players, not just the DP or the chat attenders.

As VP, I help with the setting of the sliders. Each TC that takes place, I learn something new about how my slider instruction could have been better. That makes me a better player and a better VP.

If ALL the leaders are forced to put more effort and thought into their instructions, everyone will benifit. The game will become more 'perfect' and we will stand a better chance at actually winning the game.

It seems to me that half way through the second term, we are getting more instructions posted, better quality instructions and more 'templates' of how a good instruction is constructed. These templates will evolve as we make mistakes and have oversights that cause troubles in the turn chat.