RBC12H - Fall of Rome, Anglo-Saxons (Demigod)

Initial post to register the thread. Edit it later with details, but can at least post the roster and ask folks to check in.

Roster
T_McC
Bede
Sir Bugsy
Kabuki
Elvis1985

There are 150 turns in the game. I think it is best if we go 10 turns/player for the 1st two rounds, and then 5 turns/player for the next two rounds (or however long the game lasts). This gives us the best chance to distribute the turns evenly, if the game doesn't go the distance. This will also be a very war-heavy game, so later turns can involve moving a lot of units. One of the problems towards the end of the Rise of Rome scenario was that a 10-turn round done with proper attention required about 4 hours. This shouldn't get nearly that sprawling or require that level of MM, but it is easier for people to find 1-2 hours of free time than to find 3-4 hours. When we played the Rise of Rome scenario, a 130 turn (13 player turn) game took almost 11 weeks. Shorter length turns should lead to faster turn-around and better sustained interest.

Open the Scenario, read the Civilopedia, but try not to play shadow turns before we start.

Tried playing it a bit last night. Some things for the team to think about.

Research path and speed.

We have several settlers, what should our priorities be in settling?

Should we try for the Scourge of God wonder?

Yo, the RHVR Bede is ready to go

On settling priorities:

I would build a dense core and use migrants or warfare to push the cultural borders towards Rome The territory we claim needs to be made shield productive ASAP, though IIRC, forests are not food limited, so all they need is a road Keeping the population happy was a problem when I played this scenario as the Huns, however, and I found it useful to keep the village population numbers below 6 by peeling off workers and settlers almost constantly and keeping a horde of workers busy building roads to move pillagers and other units toward the imploding Empires is not a problem

There is no unit support limit on the Tribal Council government so our cash flow can be used to support research down the barbarian tree while we build military and workers

On research:

One critical non-barbarian tech is MapMaking as the Romans, East and West, and the Sassanids will pay many monies for maps as will the other tribes

Other than that the barbarian path is of greater value to us than any other IMHO The other tribes will pay much for barbarian techs, while the two Empires will pay chump change for "their techs"

One thing to look out for is the barbarian unit upgrade costs and build costs in a relatively shield and cash poor environment, so the Scourge of God wonder is a real gift from Thor with the auto Warlord every five turns

This is more like ten cents than two cents worth, so apologies for the windiness

I took a quick look at the scenario last night and I agree with Bede on the dense core, with one caveat: To our west we need to push our first migrants out a bit so that our neighbours (Franks) are forced further west into the Romans. They are also likely to be our first target...

As for selling techs... to be honest I'm not sure selling the Barbarian techs is a smart thing to do. Those are our main advantage. I think getting them quickly will give us an edge which we will want to keep for as long as possible as for the Scourge of God we should try for it.

As I have way to much time on my hands I came up with the following dotmap. As a note, this is my first one to actually be posted so feel free to tear it apart, as any critique in this case is good critique. Also note that suggestions are based on moving units to scout on a first turn (which I figured people would do anyways).

I've given two alternatives - Red and Purple. I think purple is the better option, but it means that several cities start a turn later. The two migrants in our capital I am really not sure what to do with, I figure one can grab the furs (SW), and one look for a food source to the SE. On the West side the purple option represents moving the southern migrant south to the purple dot and then brining in the second migrant from the north to cover the original starting spot. You will also notice the gap at the river-mouth west of the capital, I couldn't find any arrangement that places these in the first ring without too much overlap. The placement of the migrant on the river to open up the cattle for the capital is too important. However I suppose pushing that migrant 1SE and then bringing up a migrant from the capital to the river-mouth (turquise option) would work. This delays the city builds by one turn, but may be more efficient.



Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.

Edited to add the turquoise option and for accuracy.

Rather than edit the first post, I'll ramble here.

We are Hengest of the Anglo-Saxons. We start in the North-Central portion of the map. On turn 0, we don't know anyone, but we do have an immediate neighbor, the Franks, to our west. Our starting gov't is the best gov't for the scenario. Tribal Council allows unlimited unit support, 2 MP's, and the whip to hurry production

We start with "bonus" tech of Sailing, which I believe only one other barbarian tribe knows. This should allow us to swing some trades once we meet the other tribes. After looking at the Frank thread, they start with multiple workers so I won't feel bad about buying one off of them before they get the chance to move. Let us try to restrict ourselves to buying one slave only from each race, and capture slaves to our heart's content.

The Barbarian tree allows for four unique units. They go as follows:
Raider 2.1.1 (10 Shields)
Marauder 4.2.1 (20 Shields)
Pillager (enslave to worker) 6.2.1 (40 Shields)
Warlord (UU, enslave to Marauder) 8.3.1 (70 Shields)

All units are infantry (move 1), and the units after the Raider allow for collateral damage on improvements. (Attack a city, destroy a building). Iron is required for the last 3 units. There is no Iron visible on our start, so we have to go find some and maybe beat some people up for it.

This certainly appears to be an offensive scenario, as the only units with a defense better than 2 are the Warlord, Legion, and Heavy Cavalry. The Roman Civs start with Legions, but Heavy Cavs require a first-row tech from the 2nd era.

We are rather close to the Western Roman Empire, and quite a ways from the Eastern. So our pillaging rampage will go through the Romans instead of the Byzantines, at least until the late game. We also have the option of attacking Roman cites in England. We start with 3 Curraghs (move 3, transport 1), and Map Making allows Galleys (move 4, transport 2). My initial guess is that we won't want to attack England, that attacks on the mainland would be easier. Even though I expect that the local holdings will be more heavily defended, we can much more easily mass troops over land than over sea.

I agree that the faster we move up the Barbarian tree the better. Sailing might be good trade bait, as I think only one other civ has it at the start. If we get lucky, we can trade it for Alphabet and/or Masonry, as Sailing is a 2nd-tier tech and the others are 1st tier. I also agree that Map Making should be a tech we target when we trade or do later research. I was surprised at how fast tech moved in Rise of Rome, so maybe if we keep our heads up in Diplomacy we will not have to make a lot of hard choices.

Our Capital of Kiel has already been founded. We start with 3 workers, 7 migrants, 7 Raiders and 3 Curraghs. Most units are visible in the previously posted dot map.

Migrants are 20-shield, 2-move settlers that only cost 1 pop. Oddly, the Civilopedia states that when they join a city, two pop are added. Either a misprint or a very exploitable "feature". Would you like to buy a pop point for 20 shields?

On the posted dot-map:
I like the N purple dot, we are not in competition for that spot. Unless I'm missing something, there is no possibilty of a canal tile on that peninsula.

Going counter-clockwise, I like the Western Purple dot. We are under pressure from the Franks there, and have to found on the first turn. Then I like moving the 2nd Migrant to the river-mouth turquoise dot.

I think the migrant in the south should go south to claim the game.

I agree that the migrant by the cow can move to the forest (another uncontested site).

The two migrants from the capital can go for the furs and push east. If one of the migrants goes SE-E, it will find a wheat.

In general, I think a plan of settling to give each city 9 tiles (abutting first rings) is prudent. Lots of cities spamming lots of troops and workers seems to be the way to go. Maybe 1 or 2 spurts of Migrants after the starting set, and then lots and lots of troops. The earlier we can get to fighting the Romans, the better.

I will play the opening 10 tomorrow morning (EST), so speak now ...

*Nod* There is no canal tile on the Northern peninsula. Other than that your analysis seems good with me.

Make us strong, brother

I would try to settle along the rivers, just so we don't have to build a duct. Following one of the rivers south will run into some iron. Iron is critical and we need to claim some early. I would send one migant/raider pair out in search of it.

If we are going to go for the Scourge of God (well worth it in my opinion) we will need to start a city on a pre-build almost immediately.

RBC12H - Lighting the Candle

First, I get on the Forum to remember what I said last night. At least I think it was me that said it.

324 AD (1)
I start by following my own instructions, so I have nobody to blame but myself. The northern migrant moves NE to the forest, and the Raider moves SE. I envision this city building lots of workers, so may not need MP right away. Plus, I want to get our forces towards our borders with other civs. Move the Northern Dinky. It's kind of silly to have all these boats together, but we'll have a better WM to trade to the inland civs that never meet the Celts. One of the western migrants moves W to found Lubeck. A Raider moves in for MP. Lubeck starts a worker. We need early labor, but I primarily want this worker to chop forest so we can build Barracks in Lubeck, as this city is culturally pushing the Frankish capital. Move the other migrant to the mouth of the river, and a Raider follows. The worker start to road back to the west. Southern Migrant moves to double-deer spot, Raider moves to SE spot adjacent to Frank capital. Only way to have a chat before the Franks move. Central Migrant moves to forest, Raider moves with it, but will end up closer to the front, leaving this city empty. Worker out of capital to road, one Migrant heads south (temporarily unescorted), one heads west with an escort. Get a woker + 50 gold from Franks for Sailing. Slave joins worker roading out of capital. With 100 gold in the bank, Marauding in 23 @ -3 gpt. (100% Science).

We had 7 migrants and founded 1 city. Who thought up this plan?

326 AD (2)
Clovis asks us to leave, we do. Found Bremen at the mouth of the river. It too will pop out a worker as its first task. Found Chippenham near the deer. Starts on Barracks, as I expect this to be a front-line city. Raider that was bugging Clovis moves in that direction for MP duty. Found Repton. Starts Migrant. Found Howacht in the north, starts worker. Marauding is now due in 11.

328 AD (3)
We meet Western Rome. (Clovis must have sold contact). Trade our WM + 30 gold for Contact with Visigoths. Trade Sailing to Visigoths for Masonry + 14 gold. We also know Eastern Rome (Byzantines). Trade WM + 6 gold for Contact with Ostrogoths. It appears the leader of the Ostrogoths is wearing a gourd on his head. Sell him Sailing for 50 gold. Found Lindsey, and start a worker. Switch Chippenham to Raider, I want to poke around a little here.

330 AD (4)
Found Cirencester (furs). Starts worker. Find Iron in the South! Get 9 gold selling our WM.

332 AD (5)
Nothin'

334 AD (6)
Make 8 gold selling WM. Just now realize we can't go counter clockwise around Scotland with a boat.

336 AD (7)
Bremen: Worker --> Migrant.
Chippenham: Raider --> Barracks.
Howacht: Worker --> Migrant.

Contact Celts, sell them Masonry for 71 gold. Use those proceeds to make two trades, the result of which is 123 gold for a Roman slave + TM. Turn sliders down and buy Alphabet from Byzantines for Celtic contact (which Caesar would just sell them next turn), WM, 7 gpt. Recoup partial costs by selling Alphabet to Clovis for 35 gold. Marauding in 5 @ -9 gpt. All the other Barbarian tribes are broke.

338 AD (8)
Nothing much.

340 AD (9)
Meet the Vandals. As all the cool kids have, he gives his entire treasury for Sailing (50 gold). I don't think we've met everyone yet. There are 10 civs in this game? Let's see, H is the (ABCDEFG ... H) 8th letter, plus the two Romes. Yup, two more folks to meet. Smart-ass Vandal says goodbye with something about Weiner Dogs. Get 5 more gold for WM.

342 AD (10)
Ostrogoths beat us to Marauding by 1 turn. Get it from him for Masonry, which everybody else knows. Research set to Pillaging at break-even (18 turns). Next player gets to choose research pace.

Repton: Migrant --> Migrant.
Migrant is heading to settle on the Iron. There is an escort already in Chippenham. Use the Raider down there to block any other pairs from the road.

Get 13 gold + Byz TM for WM. Keep those Dinky boats circumnavigatin' !

Notes for next player:
Priority 1 is settling the Iron site. Priority 2 is settling the Iron site. You are 3 turns from settling on the Iron hill (remember Migrants move 2). We could start a war with Marauders, but I think we need some turns to grow. A war with Pillagers could be very fun, and we are within 20 turns of those. I hope at least one of the Barbarian tribes will research something other than the Barb tech tree, as buying tech from the Byz or Romans really cramps our war-making. If we make 20-turn deals, I expect us to honor them. Since Rome and the Byz are in a locked alliance, this means no war until our gpt payment to the Byz expires.

I've pushed workers initially, but we could certainly use a Migrant push. I would consider switching Lindsey and Cirencester to Migrants instead of workers. We also need to identify a couple of more Military cities, both for escorts and for attack forces. Next player should also identify a pre-build site for the Scourge of God. We have Masonry, so we can use the Palace. Probably need to start it on these next 10 turns, as we should be < 40 turns from Barbarian Leadership. It would be very nice to have 100+ shields towards the wonder by the time we get the tech. Would be even nicer to have 150+.


Do You Think I'm Anglo-Saxy?

Now for pictures:

Our Territory


And a dot-map


All these dots comply with a tight build. The Southernmost dot is on top of the Iron. Keep the southern Raider available to block the road from anyone coming West. That Iron is ours!

Bede now takes the reins. Right after he finishes his turn in JB3. You do know it is your turn in JB3, don't you. Or did we get wiped out and you are afraid to post?

Brother Bede, that iron will be essential for kids to grow 12 ways... or is that wonder bread?

I like the dot map. How about Repton as a pre-build city?

Looks like expansion to the South is limited by the Franks. Should we try and get some cities out to the East and back fill?

I assume military, workers, and expansion will be our only concerns for quite a while.

Originally posted by T_McC
Smart-ass Vandal says goodbye with something about Weiner Dogs.

Click to expand...

You should have checked you belt pouch after he left - you would have found it empty!

- A member of the lurking Vandals*

(Is cross-thread posting OK?)

@T_McC
The Confederacy still thrives


Oh, got it

If Bede hasn't played yet, he can investigate one of the mysteries of this scenario:

What happened to the Sassanids?

They have locking borders with the Byzantines, yet we haven't been able to trade for contact with them. (We are also missing the Huns.) Both halves of Rome posess Writing, and I traded contacts with each of them on my turns. So how are we unable to get contact with the Sassanids? I ask because they are the ones we will want to buy "normal" tech from, since we don't have to go to war with them.

Oh, I forgot this.

Check for new contacts with the two Romes every turn

We can trade other barbarian contacts to the Sassanids for techs, and most especially want to meet the Huns so we can trade for Horseback Riding. After we research the Scourge tech, maybe we should double back for Writing (if we haven't traded for it), so we can build Embassies and form Military Alliances.

Summary Report to Tribal Council 342-362AD

Founded four cities:
One on iron hill, two more between the iron and the coast, and one on the coast
Plague struck at Bremen and Lubeck
Trained a handful of raiders and workers
Built some roads and barracks, and chopped a forest
Explored the coasts of Gaul and Iberia
Met the Sassanids who introduced me to the Huns
Explored to the south and east
Computer crashed right after saving the file, so detailed log was lost

@T_McC

Sassanids wouldn't trade tech for contacts or even money We can probably get HBR for Pillaging from somebody, though I'm not sure I see the need except as trade as the northlands are singularly devoid of horses and there are no open trade routes

In checking the status screen the other tribes are accumulating VP's
There must be war(s) happening in the east

The dinky exploring the coast of Britain reveals a lot of unoccupied fortifications reachable from Lubeck and a VP in Londinium Given the distance from the heart of the empire and the undeveloped state of the land this might be a good place to train Pillagers The Celts have not been moving south, yet

The Rota
T_McC
Bede played
Sir Bugsy up
Kabuki on deck
Elvis1985
T_McC

Edited to fix fumble finfered typing and bad link

Sorry for the messed up link and the screwy post

God, how I hate laptops with touch pads

Look here

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/RBC12H_362AD.zip

Took a peek at the save:

Big trading round possible on the Interturn. We are one turn from Pillaging, but won't be the first there.

Horseback Riding is needed to see horses, in the save we don't have that tech yet.

If Repton is going to build the SoG, we have to think about tile assignments around it. Might even consider a worker merge up to the limits of happiness.

Check workers around Bremen, we may be wasting a forest chop.

We may be able to expand by settlement for another round. We have a lot of available land. Maybe 3-4 more cities before we start the all-troops all the time mode. Might be nice to get a city on the Western bank of the river S of Timmendorf, as that is the direction we need to go to attack Western Rome, and we would prefer to cross the river as infrequently as possible. Otherwise land in the East is available.

If we wanted two cities in the south, we could go S-S-S from Timmendorf, and then SE-SE-S from the new city and found on a 2nd iron Hill. The latter city would border Western Rome, but on a Hill, behind Walls we could mount a serious defense, especially with Catapults.

We are the largest Barbarian Empire (excluding the Sassanids), and are last in Military Service. Now if I only knew what that meant.

Once we get Writing, we should establish some embassies with the other Barbs, we want dogpiles.

Sir Bugsy is up!

Got it and will play over the next day or so. Hopefully, I'll be able to post in 24 hours or less. Something about my boss wanting me to work. I wonder what he's talking about?