Dealing with Tribute Demands – Term 3

Furiey

Furiey

No Longer Just Lurking
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Or - do we pay or tell them to get stuffed?

So far we’ve not had any demands made of us, but sooner or later that will change and someone will try and bully us into handing over maybe some of our hard earned gold, techs, contacts or possibly even cities.

The demands could include:
Gold
Techs
Maps
Contacts
Luxuries
Resources
Cities
Click to expand...
Possible responses:
Reject outright
Pay up to a certain level
Pay up to certain Civs
Pay everything
Click to expand...
Following the discussion in Term 2 the instructions we used for the Turn Chat Instruction Thread were as follows:
Tribute Demands: Reject all tribute demands from Russia unless the demand is trivial (10 gold or less and/or a territory map). From other countries, pay all tribute demands that do not exceed 40 gold or 2 gpt or that include technologies, cities, or contacts. If the demand exceeds 40 gold, 2 gpt, or includes contacts, techs, or cities, reject the demand.
Click to expand...
I propose to continue with this instruction for the coming turnchat, but times have moved on, and the relative strengths of our neighbours have changed and will continue to do so as the turns progress. So how do we update these instructions? Please use this thread to post your ideas.

Remember - if we're too timid it will cost us, but if we call their bluff and get it wrong we could well be at war!
 
It’s now 50 BC and the strength of us to our neighbours is as follows:
Code: 
           Aggression   Our Strength
             Level        to them
Russia         4           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Babylon        4          [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
India          1           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Germany        5           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Greece         3           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Egypt          3          [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
A few questions to think about:
  • Is there a Civ we would reject all demands from - Russia for example?
  • Is there a Civ we would always pay up to?
  • Is there a demand we would always refuse - cities? Strategic resources?
  • Would we always reject a demand if we are stronger than the Civ?
  • Always pay up if we are weaker?
 
I think strenght isn't a true factor. We may be the first civ to have swords for all we know. I still would give in until we have a sizable army. (i.e., 20 swords, 20 knights, etc.)
 
I would refuse all but Babylon at this point, and possibly Russia and Greece as well. They are too big of a potenial threat being on our borders(Babylon) and we need allies on our borders (Greece, Russia). Egypt would have to cross the continent to fight, so reject them to start a war to seize their active and potential forces in Audiac.
 
Just for the information of those who do not know it:

"average" is a range of +-25%. If our strength is 100, it is average to those with strength between 80 and 125.
 
There is a huge difference between term 2 and term 3; this time the Babylonians have declared war. Perhaps it's time to change our attitude to demands.

We can choose between Never have another civ demand something because they fear our Military might, or cave in to everything.

- Never: This would require the war with Babylon to be won and to be won decisively. Also we'd have to maintain an up-to-date military.
- Cave in: this would require us to make sure that they can demand as little as possible, thus trading around excess luxes, all new techs, all contacts, WM's etc. And use our gold for upgrades, cashrushes, embassies etc.
 
I agree: we should have a clear position. And stand by this position.

IMHO it would be ridiculous to refuse the demand (as we did), loose/abandon a city, plea for peace, and probably pay more than was originally demanded.

Now war was declared on us. That by itself is not necessarily bad: we have happiness from reverse war weariness, there is no immediate danger (say a stack of doom close to an important city), and IMHO we can make Babylon regret the war, improve our relations with the other civs, slow down everybody else's research, and probably ruin a few reputions because allies will make peace before 20 turns are up. :goodjob:

The biggest problem IMHO is to get the support of the people for the war. In the game, we are still despotism, but in RL(?) we are a democracy. :)

PS: I firmly believe that it was in the very best interest of Fanatica to refuse the Babylonian demand.
 
Has anybody got any views on this?

  • We don’t want Egypt at war with us as well as Babylon so should we accede to any demand from them for the time being?
  • What about our allies in this war – they would have to break that alliance to declare war on us so should we reject all their demands?
  • Should we give in to everyone at the moment, no matter what the demand, giving up techs, cities, everything?
  • Should we reject all demands – they can all fight us if they want!
  • Or should we carry on as is, paying up for small demands and rejecting large ones (how we got into this war in the first place).
I am going to put up poll on this shortly.
 
with india's low agression level, and having to pass through babylon territory to get to us, i think we can be more lax with them
 
It's now 410 AD and our war with Babylon is over, and we have recently refused a demand from Egypt for Monotheism without them declaring war. So it's time again to look at our approach to AI demands. These are our current instructions, which we have had since term 2.
Tribute Demands: Reject all tribute demands from Russia unless the demand is trivial (10 gold or less and/or a territory map). From other countries, pay all tribute demands that do not exceed 40 gold or 2 gpt or that include technologies, cities, or contacts. If the demand exceeds 40 gold, 2 gpt, or includes contacts, techs, or cities, reject the demand.
Click to expand...
There has been mention in this thread for a long term policy towards this so:
  • Do we now want to refuse all demands - we'll rely on our military if necessay
  • Do we want to always pay up - we'll win another way
  • Is there a particular Civ we would reject all demands from - Russia for example?
  • Is there a particular Civ we would always pay up to?
  • Is there a demand we would always refuse - cities? Strategic resources?
  • Would we always reject a demand if we are stronger than the Civ?
  • Always pay up if we are weaker?
Please post your views for the way forward.

The strength of us to our neighbours is as follows:
Code: 
           Aggression   Our Strength
             Level        to them
Russia         4           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Babylon        4           [COLOR=red]Weak [/COLOR]
India          1           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Germany        5           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Greece         3           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Egypt          3           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
And relative power from the histogram:
 
I am inclined to follow up on my own suggestion of March 4th. Never! We have met the conditions; This would require the war with Babylon to be won and to be won decisively. Also we'd have to maintain an up-to-date military.

We have been given cities; the AI would only do that if it thinks it has lost enough to stop the war.

1 bit of fine-tuning to "never". If we get into civ A for a refused demand, and civ B demands something from us; it is wise to contemplate caving in. War with 2 nations might be too much.
 
I personally have always preferred the Never option, I have however realised that this is not always the best way to win though, particulaly on higher levels. If we maintain the power lead that we now have, then we should be able to maintain this stance. Of course, if we lose the lead then we will need to reconsider. And in the case of a war then we would have to be very careful not to end up with a war on 2 fronts.

Errr - I think I just said in lots of words - I agree with Rik Meleet
 
It's 510 AD, and we have met Persia. Unfortunately we are Weak to them:

The strength of us to our neighbours is as follows:
Code: 
           Aggression   Our Strength
             Level        to them
Russia         4           [COLOR=green]Strong [/COLOR]
Babylon        4           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
India          1           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Germany        5           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Greece         3           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Egypt          3           [COLOR=orange]Average [/COLOR]
Persia         4           [COLOR=red]Weak [/COLOR]
We also have something Persia will want - namely our contacts. If we decide not to trade them, it is likely that they will demand them from us. If we refuse, as they are stronger than us, it will probably lead to war.

So what do we do - pay up to Persia no matter what? or risk war - they're on another continent - so what will it matter!
 
Originally posted by Furiey
they're on another continent - so what will it matter!
Click to expand...
Exactly. The critical moment is now: We have to get "everything from everybody" with our knowledge advantage before war limits our options. Afterwards we can take it easy. :D
 
Who has the Great Lighthouse BTW? If Persia has it, then we would need to worry. Then again, they could just cruise right along to Astronomy and Mil. Trad..
 
reject all offshore dmands in volving more than 10 gold or territory map but combined is still okay.
 
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