Ministry of Defense: WAR!

Citizens of Fanatica,

Looks like Babylon wants to fight. They have declared war on us at this point. This is a citizen discussion concerning a full scale military operation against them and ways we should deal with them. Any suggestions?

I intend to post my own plan tommorow.

Well, generally speaking, we don't have the production, nor the road network to do a full out war. This is going to be a defensive battle for alittle while, and a "full scale operation" would be impossible. The most we could likely do is keep them at a standstill, and maybe lose/gain nothing in the peace treaty.

Babylon has a stronger military, larger road network, stronger units (it's there UU), once there UU kills one of our units they hit there golden age, so even more production for them.

So our plan is evasion?

Originally posted by Sarevok
So our plan is evasion?

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Our plan SHOULDN"T be to take any of there cities, but to destroy there units and pillage there roads etc. Any attack against a city is likely to make huge loss's against are force's, force's we will need, as the babylonians are going to be most certainly out-producing us.

ok, Horsemen to raiding while our forces gather at our border cities. Were going to have to change settlement plans to put any oper settlers to build cities north in Audiac. I immediately suggest a MA with India and Russia as a counter-weight.

Originally posted by Sarevok
ok, Horsemen to raiding while our forces gather at our border cities. Were going to have to change settlement plans to put any oper settlers to build cities north in Audiac. I immediately suggest a MA with India and Russia as a counter-weight.

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I wouldn't suggest any MA's, locking us into a 20-turn war could be VERY dangerous. If thing's start to go badly, we might want to make peace BEFORE it becomes to bad, and we don't want to ruin our rep the entire game.

point taken, but Id prefer to have a blank peace table which babylon wont give us unless they suffered with wont be for a while and we may need allies to do it. A 20-turn war may end up anyways to avoid a humiliating peace.

Originally posted by Sarevok
point taken, but Id prefer to have a blank peace table which babylon wont give us unless they suffered with wont be for a while and we may need allies to do it. A 20-turn war may end up anyways to avoid a humiliating peace.

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I'd prefer not to make a MA, and then find out it was a huge mistake later on. We can't allow ourselves to rely on other nations for support, let's do this standing on our own two feet.

That is my preference too, but im afraid we may be a bit too weak to do so.

We could try to take out their jungle cities. I doubt they have too many units, and we do have a few nearby swords. Taking (and autorazing) AI cities does make the AI think twice.

should we try that?

I want a short war, so we can continue trade quickly. Our treasury in Sanction (Who the hell moved lurge chunk of our treasury there?) was seriously raided.

Signing an MA with India is not the way to go. Sure it'll improve Fanatican - Indian relations and we might not see a single Babylonian unit, but we have no harbor yet, thus trade with India, Russia, Germany, Greece and Egypt is non-existent. And we'll cut ourselves off off trade with Babylon for at least 20 turns.

I have full confidence our Military Leader can quickly hurt the Babylonians in such a way they come crawling on their knees begging for peace and trade.

If I may humbly suggest to get some horsies and swords, defended by spears to walk through the jungle and capture the Babylonian cities as far as their Dyes-city. That'll be great to trade around !

In the East I must ask to reinforce Mûre, and play defensive. Our future trade of Iron may depend on it.

We are not able to hit Babylon fast and hard.

There is a great danger that Babylon forms an alliance against us.

Babylon will most likely enter their Golden Age soon and get increased production.

Thus it is unlikely that they agree to peace soon and cheap.

We should be able to defend Huntington and Santa Lucia, if we upgrade our warriors.

Our weak point obviously is Mure. It was a grave error that didn't do a rolling exchange of the warriors with upgraded swords. Sending them to Groton now takes just too long.

I have the great great worry that we loose Mure. Our best (only?) hope to avoid this would be to make an alliance with Germany and Russia. Then we might as well include India in the alliance. And Egypt and Greece.

What are the pros and cons:

Con: we are bound to fight for 20 turns, unless all of our allies make peace earlier, which is possible but unlikely.

Con: we cannot trade with Babylon for 20 turns, which mostly effects the free tech they got; did they? which one? IMHO minor point.

Con: We have the switch to republic (i.e. have anarchy) during the war. I would never ever stay another 20 turns in despotism!

Pro: the AI is notoriously bad in fighting at several borders at the same time.

Pro: Babylon cannot form a military alliance against us. And that would be really bad.

Pro: Babylon with their bowmen would have their Golden Age during despotism and waste most of it.

Pro: we most likely will not suffer heavy losses.

Pro: all the AIs are slowed in their research

Recommendation:
Kill the Babylonian warrior in our territory.
Reduce science slider, but still finish republic in one turn.
Do upgrades; move warriors to barracks; move troops towards the front.
Do all sort of other things.
End turn and learn republic. Do 1st revolt via "Big Picture".
From the Domestic Advisor micromanage all cities for non-riot maximum food.
If more than 4 turns of anarchy, revolt again.
Trade/give philosophy, currency, construction to Greece in order to make them get their free tech.
Trade for the free techs of the scientific AIs: get wms, to learn about Babylonian infrastructure; try to only trade them contacts, ROP, money to get the techs; try to not give them republic. Get as much money from everybody for all techs (except republic).
Include forming alliances with all AIs vs. Babylon.
Attack/raze Zirqum. I most likely would not/not yet attack the junge towns but get enforcements first.
Once we are republic, hurry walls in Mure.

PS: I personally would use the 2 galleys between us and Egypt to explore the NE coast for a good place to start a suicide run across the sea to the missing civs. making contact could give us massive amounts of cash for hurrying units/barracks/walls.

PPS: I would hate to be pulled in a war and only loose/pay tribute for peace!

we have to upgrade! looks like Egypt can wait. Strider is right though, any offensive (besides pillaging resources with horsemen) is too risky. We have to defend Mure.

What if we withdraw all our units from the city and Abandon or gift Mûre to another Civ? That way we won't have our hands tight at Mûre, some free troops and we only loose a worthless city. And we don't get WW-induced Unhappyness.

normally i sayattack the border cities when faced with a war, but in this case, we aren't prepared, make peace ASAP!

Originally posted by Rik Meleet
In the East I must ask to reinforce Mûre, and play defensive. Our future trade of Iron may depend on it.

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That might be futile... 6 turns from Groton to Mure alone, not to mention the extra turns to bring troops in from the core of our civ. Mure was poorly placed.

I realised that CT, see also my other post:
What if we withdraw all our units from the city and Abandon or gift Mûre to another Civ?

Question to those who have the save - any idea where the Bab units are congregated right now? In other words - where is their push going to come from?

-- Ravensfire

Originally posted by ravensfire
Question to those who have the save - any idea where the Bab units are congregated right now? In other words - where is their push going to come from?

-- Ravensfire

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We don't know yet. I guess that means vague instructions then, from the MA, which I know you don't like. The MA should be at the turnchat, looking at the save and giving advice constantly....


But, because of our ruleset, I guess he can't do that, since "move those troops there!" wouldn't be a legal instruction anymore... And I guess, according to you and Cyc, he would be "lazy" because he can't tell where the Bab troops will come from. I would sure hate to see the CCs fly because Mure was in an impossible place to defend properly...

Here's a tactic. Leave a city in our desert (furthest away from Babylon) completely undefended. The Babs will aim for that city, in which we can pick them off as they enter our territory.