Military Alliances Against Babylon

We are now at War with Babylon following our refusal to pay their demands. A full Military discussion is ongoing here, but do we want to rope our neighbours in as well? Getting them to join in will help keep Babylon occupied giving us more chance to build our defensive and offensive forces. It will also keep our neighbours occupied, possibly slowing their research and settling rate.

At present there are only 3 Civs we can form alliances with – Russia, India and Germany. We can’t form alliances with either Egypt or Greece as they haven’t met Babylon yet!

Russia and India border Babylon, Germany would have to march through Russian territory to get there but are the strongest of the three nations.

We have 162 gold in our vaults (thanks to the Marcomanni) and can gain 16 gpt with Republic in 1 turn or 34 gpt with Republic in 3.

Our options for trades are summarised below:

A gold only deal is too expensive if we want to ally with them all, contact with Egypt would get them all to join in and they may even throw in a little gold to go with it (I haven’t checked) - but do we want to trade our contacts? Then there are several options involving Peace and ROP which may get us locked into Peace Renegotiations every 20 turns.

So what do we want to do?

Which Civs do we want to ally with?

If we choose to ally, what sort of deal do we go for?

edited to add link to military discussion, also edited to correct our gold stocks - I'd listed what Russia had!

Hmmm.... I wonder how this war started... Would it be possible to get some sort of idea of the gravity of the situation before we start talking about alliances?

Definately Russia (but we risk making them stronger). Also remember that trades can devalue or add value to other alliances and treaties.

I argue the framework in this post.

1. We have to wait for 1 turn (until we learn republic) to have it as emergency bargaining chip. Nonetheless I would -- if at all possible -- not trade it to the AIs.
2. Then we have to donate Greece in the Middle Ages to get their free tech.
3. The we trade for any Middle Age techs offering also contacts.
4. Then we make alliances and get as much money and maps from everybody.
5. India would be easy game: buy the alliance for contact with Egypt, polytheism, 122g. They enter Middle Ages. We sell them a free tech for all their gold plus wm.
6. Continue with "optimal sequence".
7. We should be able to form a global alliance vs. Babylon.
8. I would be willing to pay some money in some deals, as long as we get a surplus form the aggregated trades.
   [/list=1]I would suggest to give the DP a lot of freedom to trade along, but not being slave to, the above guidelines.

I'm also for giving the DP freedom to trade around. It's a situation like this that instructions can't fully forsee or instruct. Things change when you trade, you can't help that. (If you want to blame someone, blame the programmers. I think Soren programmed some of this. ). Republic would also be good to trade to a scientific civ once they hit the middle ages. (Even if that means gifting them a tech, or using it for an alliance).

This is a topic which combines the Military, FA and T&T.

First of all; in my treasury is only 162 gold, not 224.
If we choose to sign alliances we should use the reduced cost (since we are paying already) to buy techs.

I checked for trades, combining these Military Alliances with them.

Russia - Monotheism + Alliance Vs Babylon:
Least amount of gpt: Contact with Greece and Egypt + 162 gold + WM + 4 gpt.
No contacts: WM + 162 gold + 39gpt.
No contacts, no WM: 162 gold + 44 gpt.

Germany - Monotheism + Alliance Vs Babylon:
Least amount of gpt: Contact with Greece and Egypt + 162 gold + WM + 19 gpt.
No contacts: not possible.

India - Monotheism + Alliance Vs Babylon:
With Poly: Polytheism + Contact Greeks.
OR Poly + Contact Egypt.
OR Poly + WM.
OR Poly + 7 gpt.
OR Poly + 122 gold.

Without Poly:
Contact Greeks.
OR WM + 60 gold.
OR WM + 4 gpt.
OR 12 gpt.
OR 162 gold + 3 gpt.

Like I said the the Military thread, no alliance's, period.

Please note one very important fact: techs devalue, the more civs know them.

Thus I said: trade/donate scientific Greece into Middle Ages. If they also get monotheism, the price drops.

If they get another tech, we can broke.

Trading without Greece in the MA is very very bad.

Originally posted by Strider
Like I said the the Military thread, no alliance's, period.

Click to expand...

IMHO what you say is: we don't want alliances, we want Babylon to form alliances vs. us.

@ tao:

Originally posted by tao
Thus I said: trade/donate scientific Greece into Middle Ages. Trading without Greece in the MA is very very bad.

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That means gifting Greece 5 techs + 1 extra free tech, based on an assumption; IF they get Monotheism as their free tech. If they get another we've given a rival Civ a jump bigger than the ToE can ever do. And it's not like we are getting them back into shape to helpus; we are deliberately throwing them ahead of us.

I don't like this or your previous gambles. Your previous gamble turned out incorrect. Greece and Egypt had not traded WM's when you gambled/assumed they had.

But then again; it's not me who decides, if the citizens like (or dislike) your idea they can speak out here.

Originally posted by tao
IMHO what you say is: we don't want alliances, we want Babylon to form alliances vs. us.

Click to expand...

that would probably be the result, so better to have allies than to fight more enemies. I suggest India and Russia and possibly to have Germany in it too.

Some info on our relative strengths
Power Rank taken from the histograph:

Egypt is the strongest Civ after us and Babylon. We can’t ally with them until they also know Babylon. We could do the following trade

Egypt gives: WM + 90 gold, we give contact with Babylon

We could then immediately contact them again and have Philosophy, Currency and Construction which we could then trade for an alliance.

@Rik Meleet: Thank you for noticing I'd got the gold in our coffers wrong - I've corrected the first post. If we form these alliances, then how we do so very much involves T&T - we just can't afford the simple gold deals! This is definitely an area where all three ministries need to work together.

1) What is the Senate's stance on using gold for these trades and alliances?

2) Is this an emergency situation or not? Who started the war? What are our defenses? What are our offensive capabilities? Have we incurred any losses yet?

I think no alliances. Unless...If Babylon gets an allience, we too have to get an a alliance with a strong country.

My 2 cents

Originally posted by tao
IMHO what you say is: we don't want alliances, we want Babylon to form alliances vs. us.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter wether they do or don't, the only other civ that could possibly do something to us is Russia, and I really doubt that they could do much, even if we do see them at all. Military Alliance's will do much more harm than good, not only might it destroy our much needed gold reserves for upgrading, but it also locks us into the war for 20 turns.

Im going to have to disagree, this war will last a long time if it is to be on our terms and fighting an aiilance war either with or against is inevitable. Better start the show first before it is ended.

It would really help my military duties if I had a deputy...

Originally posted by Sarevok
Im going to have to disagree, this war will last a long time if it is to be on our terms and fighting an aiilance war either with or against is inevitable. Better start the show first before it is ended.

It would really help my military duties if I had a deputy...

Click to expand...

We can't last in a long war, were locked in depotism, our only possible other government choice is republic, which won't last long in a war anyway. Even if we get Monarchy were risking 6 turns of no production, enough time for babylon to do a heck of alot of damage (and for each of there cities to produce atleast one unit).

well.... I suppose it would be my problem then?

I have now polled this issue.

I think we should probably get alliances with German and Russia. We need to give Babylon another war front to deflect their power away from us. Also, we do not want to risk Babylon getting alliances with either Germany or Russia against us. I think we should leave India out of it because they are so weak compared to Babylon that Babylon would probably just swallow them up, leaving Babylon even strong and the world with one less trading partner.