RBC13 - Middle Ages SG Series Thread

Middle Ages - C3C Scenario - Succession Game series

The Middle Ages scenario pits a total of thirteen nations against each
other in a battle for supremacy, including the remnants of the Eastern
Roman Empire, the Byzantines, and three 'flavors' of 4 nations each,
the Christians (aka Catholics, Europeans), the Norsemen (Vikings),
and the Muslsims (aka Middle East, Northern Africa). For more info
on the interesting differences betweeen these flavors, see the next post.

Now that all RBC12 games are over, including the Roman games,
and following partial signups in the RBCiv SG Discussion Thread,
we're ready to roll with the "Middle Ages" series. We'll be
fielding games for all playable civs, including three "open" games.
Rules are nothing unusual, the basic no-exploit list of
Realms Beyond. 24 hrs to post "got it", +up to 48 hrs to finish
the turn. Be careful to check the civopedia for the scenario,
as there are some very significant changes in the scenario.
VP victory will be most common, and civs with artifacts must not
delay their mission to return to Jerusalem, lest they run out of
time before VP defeat. We'll go with our common house rule of limiting
worker purchase to one worker per civ for the first 50 turns, and
no limit after that time frame.

Please use v1.1.5 of Civ 3 Conquests, although we may upgrade to 1.2 later.
Hosts- check 'Normal' aggression, and use default leader names.
# of turns per player turn: 10 right from the start (5-10 is fine if the
fighting gets very lengthy), though the first player may take 15 if desired.

Most of the team games below have a solid 4 players. Some only have three,
and many would welcome a fifth - If interested, sign up here or directly
in the game thread. For each civ below, the 'host' is listed first.
They'll have final say on players, are responsible for starting a new
thread (e.g., RBC13A - Middle Ages - Byzantines)


Brutal games (Deity+ and Sid players only, please)

A) Byzantines - Sid (How the Roman Empire rise once again?!)
-------------
T-Hawk
Arathorn
Speaker
Charis
Jabah

B) Cordova - Demigod (So far out in left field, can they do it?)
----------
Arathorn
Charis
Corrado
Justus II

C) Turks - Diety (Goal is *domination*)
--------
Aggie
Caesar
T_McC
(at least one more needed)

D) Kievan Rus - Demigod ('Rus') (Their goal is *Conquest*)
-------------
Charis
Jabah
Grimjack
Akots


Challenging games (Demigod+ players, please)

E) Danes - Deity (Death invades from the North, facing deity foes)
--------
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
6thGenTexan
Skyfish (?)

F) Franks - Deity It's a looong way to Jerusalem, and not an easy path
---------
Ridgelake
Kylearan
Charis
Kabuki

G) Norway - Demigod (Tough starting position, but with zerks and longboats)
---------
T_McC
Bede
T-Hawk
Ville


Tough (Emperor+ players, please)

H) Abassid - Demigod (Defenders of Jerusalem itself!)
----------
Rubberjello
Yom
Sir Bugsy
Kabuki

I) Burgundy - Monarch Sandwiched between powers and strapped for resources!)
Gobi Bear
DeceasedHorse
Kylearan
Balastulin (?)


Fun (but no Cakewalk!)

J) Germans - Monarchy (Will the Splinter make it back to Jerusalem?!)
----------
Sir Bugsy
Pokiste
Rubberjello
Barbslinger


*OPEN* Succession games (NO roster, whoever wants to can 'grab the game' with
a "got it" post. Comfort with the difficulty level is a good idea)

K) Fatimid Caliphate - Emperor ('Fatimids') (Open Muslim game)
-----------
OPEN (Doc T. to start off)

L) English - Emperor (Open Christian game)
----------
OPEN (Corrado to start off)

M) Swedes - Demigod (Open Viking game, the first I've seen on DG level)
---------
OPEN (Charis to start off)


Openings
- Any team that wants a fifth (also, Turks need a strong player, see above)
- There will be three 'OPEN' games, one of each flavor, anyone can grab. Doc T and Corrado
please confirm or let me know if you would prefer someone else to open those.

I'll edit the list and make any comments on rules as needed here in
this first post. Good luck all!

As in RBC12 I'll include a poll, but this time ask the reverse question,
"Which team will go down in flames?!"

Thanks to all who haved signed up and to our friends the lurkers!
Charis

(EDIT - Spelling corrections, tnx Doc )

Middle Ages Scenario Info

In 843 the great empire of Charlemagne is divided into three parts.
Christian leaders of the Kingdoms of the Franks, Germans, and Burgundians
each have a holy relic to return to Jerusalem. A fourth relic lies with
Alfred the great in his fledling English nation to the north. Play as one
of these four Christian nations, one of four Viking powers, or one of four
Muslim nations, or... as the Byzantines! Who can rule the greatest kingdom
by the year 1453?!

Domination, Conquest, Mass Regicide, VP Scoring, Flips, Reverse capture the flag.

Christian: Franks, Burgundians, Germans, English (Knight UU 5.3.2, Western church tech)
Holy Roman Empire (ToE), Monastacism (lib), Feud (market), Chivalry (Crusader, Templar)
Viking: Kievan Rus, Danes, Swedes, Norwegians (Berzerk UU 6.2.1, Norse tradition tech)
Seafaring, Smithing (factories). Longships move *7* and Zerks are amphibious (yum!)
Muslim: Fatimids, Cordovans, Abbasids, Turks (Ansar UU 5.2.3, Atab learning tech)
Arab learning(lib), Assasination (spy 5.1.1 Siphai 6.3.3), Medicine (aqueduct)
Byzantines - Dromon UU, Byzantine Ingenuity tech
Lost Roman secrets (aqueducts, colosseum), Heavy cav (4.3.2)

* Byzantine tree: Aquaducts, Drafting, Battlefield Med; and Spies (detect Invis)
* Catholic tree: Libraries (called Monasteries), KN Wonder, Bank (=Manor);
HRE Wonder (=ToE + Heroic Epic + Pentagon), ; Crusaders (best defense before Swiss)
* Arab: Libraries, Hospitals (=aquaducts! give also culture here), BF Med; Assassins
* Vikings: Factories (=Blacksmiths), Viking Sagas SM (Magellans + Heroic Epic)
* 3rd era techs offer Marketplaces, Mills, Pikes, Universities, but no Aquaducts.
The 'gateway' techs may not be traded but may be researched or stolen, tis ok.

Variety of traits, mostly MR Christians, MS Vikings, RC Muslsims except Turks and Rus.
Mil-Rel: Burgundians, English, Franks, Germans.
Com-Rel: Abbasids, Cordovans, Kievan Rus, Fatimids.
Sea-Rel: Byzantines.
Mil-Sea: Danes, Norway, Sweden.
Com-Mil: Turks.
Non-playable: Bulgars (Byz); Castile, Celts, Magyars, Poland (Chr), Mongols.

The Vikings get their strong UU quickly and rule the sea. Christians and Muslims
get different bonuses, and the latter some strong supplemental units. The Byzantines
are not as poweful in combat units, but can get Espionage, Spies, Aqueducts.
Jerusalem belongs to the Abbasids. Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople locations are known.

Nations start with 3 kings (1.1.2, not armies). Cities/troops vary quite a bit...
Franks: 8 cities in place, all size 1 except a size 3 capital Paris. Next to Burgundy.
6 sword, 4 warrior, 7 workers. A lux, horses and iron around, not hooked up yet.
Germans: 8 cities (all size 1 but cap 2), 3 swords, 5 warr, 2 spear, 4 workers.
Burgundy: 9 cities (6 size 1, two 2, a 3) 7 swords, 1 spears, 6 workers, 3 warr
Next to Franks, Germans, the area of old Western Rome, with Rome as capital.
English: 7 cities on island (5-1,1-2,1-3), 4 sword, 2 galley, 5 workers, 5 warr,
and 1 army(!). Holy Grail. Next to Celts in Scotland, across channel Burgundy and France.
Danes: 5 cities (one separated), 6 zerks, 3 longships, 2 swords, 2 workers.
Next to Germans & Celts (turn 1 GA anyone?!? ) Close: Burgundy, English, Poland.
Norwegians: 5 cities, 5 zerks, 4 longships, 2 swords, 1 worker. Tough setup!
Two cities scattered west (Ireland), three in Norway.
Kievan Rus: 4 cities (1112) + 1 settler, 4 zerks, no boats, 2 swords, 5 workers.
Start in Ukraine north of Byz. Not on the coast, and no one directly on borders.
Swedes: 5 cities (11122), 6 zerks, 3 longships, 2 swords, 3 workers.
Mostly in Sweden with one more East. One Dane city on your island. Near Poland.
Abbasids: 5 cities (23333), 2 Ansars, 3 swords, 3 workers.
Far SE of map, across the Mediterranean Sea from Europe.
Fatimids: 3 size 1 cities + 3 settlers, 3 workers, 3 warrs, 3 Ansars.
SW of map in North Africa, cites are pretty spread out. No neighbors in sight.
Cordovans: 4 cities (1112), 2 swords, 1 ansar, 2 warr, 5 workers.
Spain and Portugal, basically. Far west of map.
Turks: 3 cities (112) but 5 settlers, 3 workers, 3 warrs, 6 horse. Alone, East edge of map.
Byzantines: 11 cities (8-1,2-2,1-7), 3 swords, 2 Dromon, 7 spear, 4 workers. How nice!
*Land bridge* to Middle East. Horses and Iron near, 3 lux. Next to Bulgars.

Cities tend to have two defenders, but AI at Emperor+ diff will have an extra spear.
Techs go rather deep. One end-of-game tech is Religious persecution, which allows
Inquisitors that can see invisible spy units, all move as road, and are 4.1.1, 30 shields.
Best defender later are Swiss Mercs, 2.5.1 (50), after Pikemen (2.4.1, 40).
Upgrade path: Warr-Sword-Crusader, Spear-Pike-Merc, Horse->Cataphract->Ansar/Knight/Sipahi
The second req'd tech, Castle buildings, allows fortifications and river crossing.
Everyone is in *Monarchy* with no better choice available. Game limit: 204 turns.
Techs or not, Zerks/Longships are ONLY available to Vikings, Sipahi only to Turks, Cataph.
only to Byz and Rus, Ansar to other 3 Muslim, (and Keshiks to barbarians )

For a list of starting locations of the Kings, see the Rus thread where I
will post a compilation (they're going for conquest and will face a VP squeeze. In
other games this info shouldn't much matter, and there are no VP rewards for wiping
out another civ)

Comments

- A lot of VP's for fighting, but the most are for taking relics to Jerusalem.
Wait too long however, and things might end up in disgrace.
- It's cramped, tons of civs, lots of fighting, dense builds
- Vikings don't have a relic but those early Zerks and fast longships are wonderful
- Lots of nice flavor with the different techs and units
- Those with ancient dogs of machines, beware the interturn might be quite long
- Many paths to victory, but none without significant warmongering!
- The gateway techs cannot be traded, but can be self-researched in 40 turns,
and following techs in the other trees can then be bought/traded. Can steal too.
Note this *is* allowed, and is not an exploit, but an explicit part of the game design.

Feedback, questions, and especially comments are welcome!
Charis

EDIT for Spelling corrections and this PS - Some units are UU's not just 'available with tech', specifically:
Sipahi - Turks ONLY, instead the
Ansar Warriors are for the other Muslsim - Cordova, Abbasid, Fatimids
Knights - UU for Germany, Burgundy, France, England, Poland
Cataphracts - non-UU unit, for Kievan Rus and Byzantines only
Keshiks - (UU?!) only available to the Barbarian chiefdoms
Berzerks - UU for the four Viking civs only (only they get longships too)
Dromon - for Byz only
Crusaders, Assassins, Inquisidors, Spies are for everyone

Well, that's what I get for voting before reading the post, I hope I didn't jinx our Cordovan team! A big to Charis, obviously a lot of effort into organizing this chaos! But if Fall of Rome was an indication, the enjoyment of these games will be well worth the effort.

@Charis: I won't start the Fatamids, but I will start the Fatimids soon .

Sorry for the delay, Sid folks - I was finishing up Epic 39 last night. I'll get a thread with a game start and some strategy posted for the Byzantines game tonight.

A rules question - what happens to a relic if the civ that owns it is eliminated by regicide? Does the relic just disappear like all its other units?

I am *fairly* certain that it just gets "dropped" wherever it is, and can get picked up. At least, I've seen a relic all by its lonesome after a civ was eliminated by regicide, but I wasn't next to it the turn that it happened to be absolutely certain. (I stumbled upon a turn or two later.)

In the interest of making it easier for players and lurkers, I have consolidated the links for the various SGs:

RBC13A Boisterous Byzantines - Sid

RBC13B Crazy Cordovans - DG

RBC13C Tenacious Turks - Diety

RBC13D Rowdy Rus - DG

RBC13E Delirious Danes - Diety

RBC13F Frenetic Franks - Diety

RBC13G Norwegian Nightmares - DG

RBC13H Angry Abbasids - DG

RBC13I Belligerent Burgundians - Emperor

RBC13J Gregarious Germans - Monarch

RBC13K Faithful Fatamids - Emperor OPEN

RBC13L Evil English - Emperor OPEN

[/URL] RBC13M Sanguinary Swedes - DG OPEN

Hope all these links work If not let me know and I will edit the post. Also, when the other two threads are opened, I will add them as well.

EDIT: Added link to Turks and Swedes threads

Originally posted by T-hawk
A rules question - what happens to a relic if the civ that owns it is eliminated by regicide? Does the relic just disappear like all its other units?

Click to expand...

It survives, as stated above. At least, it does for one turn. It may not survive for more, I don't know. Presumably it goes under "barbarian" control. (I'd like to see the Fatimids take a Relic to Africa and let the barbarians there capture it. Would it survive?)

As I'm new to Open Succession games, a simple question-

How long is considered polite before picking it back up? I'd like to play a few more turns, but only two people have played since my first turns, and I don't want to be seen as hogging the turns for myself. Should I wait until 3-4 people have played before getting back in (the length of a standard SG)?

How long is considered polite before picking it back up?

Click to expand...

My rule for open SGs is two players or 48 hours. If two people have played, I'd play it again. Or, if 48 hours have passed since I last played, I'd play again, regardless of how many others have grabbed it. Others may disagree, of course, but that's what I've always done.

Of course, with THREE open SGs right now, just pick one and play it! No need to continue doing the same one.

Arathorn

That's a good general rule of thumb Arathorn. It's also the unwritten rule I've usually applied for myself as well. I'm trying to give others more of a chance at the open ones, since I'm double dipping games already, but if one slows down, I'll hop in.

Another thought for this series in particular -- if a given Open SG seems further "behind" on the 'current year' compared to other SG's in the RBC13 series, go-go and jump in aggresively, so it doesn't lag. Conversely if it gets a few centuries ahead, give it a little extra time between grabs.

In some Open SG's I've been in, the enthusiasm has seemed to go UP with good reports and screenshots.

Good luck!
Charis

Midterm report on the RBC13 Middle Ages Succession Game series

I must say, this scenario is a lot of fun, and it seems like most or all of the
teams are doing a great job and enjoying the bloodfest!
Let's take a peek at how each of the teams are doing at around this mid-point.
For each team we'll give a synopsis, current year (as of 3/24/2004), significant wars,
relics captured, and to gauge the speed of the tech pace/AI, who built the HRE and when.

The English are ahead in years, at 1119 AD, while the Swedes had the first victory
in 1065. The Danes hope to pick up the pace soon, as they're in 903 AD. So far the HRE was
built by the Poles in all non-Christian games (except Swedes, who rushed it with a SGL!)
The English, French and Germans all managed to get it, and Burgundy hasn't reached that
stage quite yet. "Second path" of Norse flavor is most popular, with Byzantine next.
The brutal games are going... brutally, with Cordovans ahead of the curve and games with
a non-VP goal are looking grim. Open SG's are going suprisingly well. Thanks to ALL
involved for playing, discussing, and cheering on your companions!


Byzantines (A) - Sid http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=82007
990 - HRE by Poles in 984. Two Bulgar wars and a Magyar war, several sneak attacks on them.
One of the most 'distinct' games in the series, both in difficulty and in the starting
position. Byzantines have the best starting position, but on Sid you can't sit on your
laurels. They lashed out at the Bulgars the very first player turn, and came back for
more after 20 turns while building infrastructure the whole time. Their trading and
care for economy was excellent, allowing them even on Sid to be tech masters (so far )
The number of enemy units is just staggering. At the end of the second Bulgar campaign
in 960, against a supposedly crippled civ, if they weren't ready for peace they had monster
stacks ready to counter, and in the next player turn embassies showed some capitals
already with 24 defenders! The Byz got sneak-attacked by a Swede (!) and against
the Magyars a huge dogpile with a web of alliances emerged. Where it stands, there is
the possibility of a PAIR of sneak attacks, by Bulgars and Abbasids (!) next turn.
T-Hawk calls it "Ugly with a capital UGH" No MGL yet. Can they get their Cataphracts?

Cordovans (B) - Demigod http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81918
1035 - No HRE yet, Castille eliminated. +Norse tree. Researching Assassination, near new age.
The issue for Cordova is relevance. So far out, can they make score enough VP before the Byz
or Abbasids hit 30K? The long term goal would be to beat France and Burgundy to knights and
use Ansars to crush both nations. With a pretty weak core at start they chose to build up and
hit Castille twice, first to weaken and grab a tech, and again to eliminate and capture all
cities. The latter was done in 1020. Ansar running west and super early curragh decision
resulted in a great job exploring and trading, getting a full WM in just 975, growing rich
in the process. In and just after 1011 was a fortuitous conjunction - first MGL, trading for
Smithing, research of Jihad, first Ansars, Golden Age, and a second army. In 30 years they
had great economy, infrastructure and military might while Europe lacked knights.

Turks (C) - Deity (Domination goal) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=82109
1062 - HRE in 1026 by Poles. Peaceful REX, recent skirmishes. +Norse path. The Turks now
have a French relic literally carried to their doorstep! McClure is running a nice and highly
discussed game. The TUrks, out of all these games, have set a goal of Domination. Their vast
land and late game Sipahi go along with that goal nicely, but this is Deity. They also have
to contend with vicious Keshik barbarians. The tech pace was brisk, and excellent trading of
maps and tech in 1014 was a boon to their economy. So far the expansion remains peaceful,
but there is talk about more aggression shortly. In 1026 comes the most ridiculous screenshot
in all of RBC13, a French sword-settler pair in Turkey who is carrying a relic!!! Of course
they hop all over this, and accept this precious gift. As it stands now, a HUGE SoD of Magyars
is upon them, and there is much concern they may be attacked. Will they ally with the Magyars
vs one of their current foes? Fight them? Hope they keep on moving?! A tense situation.

Kievan Rus (D) - Demigod (Conquest goal) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81879
1047 - No HRE yet. Campaign vs Turks, war with Franks/Germans/Burg. +Byz tree.
With a near impossible goal of conquest the Rus took a very bold starting approach, to send
all starting offensive units to the Turks for a quick knockout. It wasn't as quick as hoped
although as of 1047 they have 1-2 turns of life left. In fact, the English got first elim,
of Celts. First MGL in 1017, second in 1117, both form Zerk armies. They're trying to get
to Cataphracts and will need a BIG war vs Magyars soon, who have poached and trespassed.

Danes (E) - Deity http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82020
903 - No HRE yet, no other tech branch sought. Blitz relic wars vs England and France.
Doc is also leading the discussion nicely. A nice aggressive start, capturing two relics
on the first player turn! One player suggested settling sail immediately while others
thought Jerusalem would be too well defended for the limited number of longships that
could sail, and so wanted the Danes to do some more invading and capturing cities.
Alas, they're fighting the Deity production game and letting Abbasids build up defense.
But their beeline to Seafaring was a good choice if they don't sail now with "starting boats"
First MGL-Zerk army in 882. The game pace is quite slow after some of the "Who got it?!"
dance, but should pick up shortly.

Franks (F) - Deity http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81992
1038 - self-HRE in 996. +Norse. Skirmishes vs England/Castille/Cordova, major Burgundy war.
The strategy was 'typical' for a Catholic nation, go for HRE, beat down a neighbor and
grab one or two more relics, and think about a Crusade to Jerusalem. The tricky part is
execution, especially scoring HRE on Deity! The Deity-ROP(TM) was in full force until
fed up they declared war on all three tresspassing nations, getting two tech discounts and
several workers for their efforts. With careful prebuild and land improvement, Orleans was
indeed able to get the HRE in 996 for a GA (too bad they couldn't get Chivalry from that)
First MGL in 938 -> Sword army. Second in 1002 for a Knight army and two more in the very
bloody war with Burgundy. As it stands in 1038, Burgundy will be eliminated next player turn.
Getting Norse tech line and Smithing arriving right at GA was quite helpful.

Norwegians (G) - Demigod http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81890
1059 - HRE in 1029 by Poles. +Byz tree. Hit England, elim Swedes, war with Rus.
Another game with excellent discussion. Of all the Vikings, the Norwegians have the most
awkward starting position(s!), and the opener chose not to attack on opening turn. (Unlike
the sanguinary Swedes and Danes ) A 2CC GA wasn't appealing. They're also the only
Viking civ to start on a foreign flavor tech (Byz) instead of quick seafaring. Overall the
view is longer term, quite a playable idea for Norway. As one player put it, "We are WEAK.
We need a coherrent plan!" They seemd to want to develop their native lands (rather than a
palace jump to England) and so they started a growth campaign, fueled by a GA by a skirmish
with England. (It's amazing, the settler-crazy AI is even poaching Norwegian land!) The
initial attack does capture a relic. Staying close to home then, the Swedes were the natural
next expansion target. Any Viking nation can wipe out any other one in 1-2 turns with the
longboats and zerks. T_McC declares on Swedes and takes this approach, capturing Sigtuna
immediately (but it's lost). Konigsvik follows (but given away!), finally Skara (auto-razed)
to wipe out the Swedes. This is a great blight off their nearby lands, but the timing of
the assault was a bust. Simultaneous attacks could have kept their choice of two cities.
(Not a huge loss though, and they took the safer route of sequential conquest ) The
Norwegians are finally looking "not weak", and one must wonder if the Danes will be
demolished in a blitz to ensure Norwegian supremacy of the North Sea?!
First MGL in 993, but unique to this game, it's not used for a zerk army but to relocate
the palace. Not to fertile (foreign!) England but to Borre, more central within the
Norway-Sweden regions. Corruption and weak economy are all too evident, with trouble
even getting CoL until 1050.

Abbasids (H) - Demigod http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81882
1017 - No HRE yet - no wars yet, although the Keshik barbarians are exerting themselves.
More so than any other nation, the Abbasids can afford to start very passive and in
pure expansion mode. They're "almost done" with expansion in 1017 Vs the AI there are
only 2-3 credible threats, of which the Byzantines are the most important. One thing is
certain though, this game will not continue to be a peaceful quiet one forever! Continue
being vigilant and building up your economic and production base!

Burgundians (I) - Emperor http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81963
960 - no HRE yet, no wars yet. They smartly realized how spread out and under-resourced
they are and the need to settle the iron. A nice blockade of French settlers was critical
and may well have saved them. They're not sure the HRE is looking too bright. Where others
first goal is conquest, theirs is survival, which makes this a tough game even on emperor.

Germans (J) - Monarch http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=81931
1056 - HRE self-built in 1053, own relic+Burgundy's, campaign: Burgundy, plan: 4 relic Jerus
They've executed well on the plan to beat down Burgundy and get a second relic, and to get
HRE and use it for Feudalism and Chivalry. The hope to get all 4 relics and head to 'J'.
Their plan is a common one for HRE nations, but a solid one! First army in 953, swords.

Fatimids (K) - Emperor (OPEN) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=82023
1038 - No HRE yet, no wars yet except continual desert swatting of gnats.
A truly unique starting position, and an unusual sole foe... barbarians! They have a
mano-a-mano struggle to expand and build up in power while fighting off hordes of very
tough barbarians. The goal is almost predetermined, they must one day clash with the
mighty Abbasid empire for a VP victory. It's a game styled less for strategic brilliance
than in precise tactical excellence. In other notes... quarry depletes at Tunis?? Boo!
As it stands now, the question is whether to go to war with Alexandria/Abbasids or not
and to set off their Golden Age prematurely.

English (L) - Emperor (OPEN) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=82082
1119 - HRE self-built in 1050, Celts and French eliminated, own relic+France. +Norse tree.
Played aggressive they dove right in on the Celts, and before 1000 had the guts to lay some
smack on Norway, who caved Seafaring in peace before he could bring enough zerks in longships
over to destroy them The English start with an army filled with 3 swords, 4th on mainland.
Around 1000 they got a MGL and eliminated Celts. In 1050 they builts HRE in Repton and now
in GA they landed in Normandy and attacked the French, capturing the relic in 1080, wiping
them out in 1119. The debate is now: set sail, Danes, or Burgundians?

Swedes (M) - Demigod (OPEN) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=82172
1065 (OVER!) - HRE in 1023 by... Swedes!?! (SGL), Relics of England+France were captured.
These guys absolutely shot out of the starting gate with guns (axes) blazing. The first
player turn eliminated both Danes and Norwegians, next two snapped the neck of England and
France and in 965 (!) we set sail for Jerusalem. The scandinavian campaign gave a quick
leader and so berzerk army. They stopped in Rome but the Relic was missing, it turned out
the VP we got looking for it was enough to compensate for lack of third relic. In 1050,
Jerusalem was captured after beating 14 units total, the toughest a sword. That left them
just short of 30K so they sacked a few random towns to win in 1065. Seven player turns total.

BTW, there's still time to vote in the poll!
Current voting looks fairly accurate for most civs, to my eyes.

Charis

Anyone have any insight yet into the oddly low tech trading costs in this scenario? As far as I can tell, it only affects techs off of a civ's own tree. In the Norwegian game, we got Lost Roman Secrets for 12g but have to pay full price for Smithing, while in the Byzantine game, Seafaring cost around 125g, far less than it should.

I haven't yet had any personal insight into the Muslim or Christian trees -- are any of the games pursuing those in addition to their civ's own tree? If form holds, it might be worthwhile for almost any civ to steal into all the trees (probably not the Byzantine tree), as the follow-up techs could apparently be gotten very cheaply.

The next step is to figure out exactly how the game mechanics work for this. The editor has no concept of "tech X isn't on civ Y's tree" - it's not smart enough to follow the chain from a tech with the untradeable flag, but certain civs start with the tech, to a later tech that depends on the earlier tech. The only mechanism must be the flavor settings, but I can't figure out the exact details.

It's NOT based on what the tech gives you, on whether your civ is allowed to build the stuff. Seafaring and Smithing seem to be very cheap in all games, despite Smithing having nothing Viking-specific. Here's why: Units are the only things that can be restricted by civ. The game has never had a trade multiplier based on whether a tech allows building of units, and trade multiplers only ever *increase* the cost of trading, never reduce it.

It seems most likely to just be runaway tech deflation. Seems that the game only includes civs matching the tech's flavor when calculating deflation. When the Byz game bought Seafaring, all 3 of the Viking civs had it (Kievan Rus don't have the Norse flavor), so I guess we were buying it at the price for 4th-civ-out-of-3. The cost was around 125g worth, doesn't quite work out to zero, but it's close, far below the tech's real cost on Sid of over 1000 beakers. Likewise, when the Norwegian game bought Lost Roman Secrets, both the Byzantines and Rus had it (I used a savegame editor to peek - that's why we couldn't trade it to the Rus, they already had it) so we were buying at 3rd-civ-out-of-2 price. The game has long had tech prices clamped to a minimum of 12 gold, and that's what we paid.

This would also explain the few anomalous tech prices back in Fall of Rome. All of the second-era techs plus a few ancient ones like Fortification have the Roman flavor, so if all three Roman civs (the Sassanids have that flavor) get them, you're buying at 4th-civ-out-of-3 which works out to really cheap. Even if you're buying from another barbarian civ.

Any other thoughts?

T-Hawk,

I was actually about to post a similar question. From our side (Cordova) the Muslim techs (Jihad) is full price, but we were able to get Smithing fairly cheap. I wondered if it was related to the flavor techs also, as when we played Fall of Rome as East Rome, the Roman techs did cost us full price. I think you may be on to something with your theory, and it definitely makes getting the entry techs for other trees more valuable. On the other hand, is that what was intended? i.e. is this a feature or a bug? (I would think it was not intended to work this way, but I'm not the expert.) Gobi?

What is definitely intended is that the flavor of an AI civ is used to modify how likely that civ is to trade you items and how likely they are to stay at a friendly diplomatic status.

Thus it should be hard for the Romans in the Rome Everlasting variant of Fall of Rome to keep barbarians as allies if other barbarians are influencing them. And the AI Romans in standard Fall of Rome should be totally unwilling to trade techs to the barbarians.

What I am not sure about is if flavoring applied to the techs (as opposed to the civs) affects this further. Apparently so, though it doesn't seem like it is working quite right. Given a bit more free time than I have this evening, I could look into it further. Any more clues we could put together might help.

Originally posted by Gobi Bear
What is definitely intended is that the flavor of an AI civ is used to modify how likely that civ is to trade you items and how likely they are to stay at a friendly diplomatic status.

Thus it should be hard for the Romans in the Rome Everlasting variant of Fall of Rome to keep barbarians as allies if other barbarians are influencing them. And the AI Romans in standard Fall of Rome should be totally unwilling to trade techs to the barbarians.

Click to expand...

This seems logical, but in fact in the standard Fall of Rome, the Romans sold their 2nd era techs quite cheap to a barbarian human. It may affect the desire of AI civs to trade with one another, as it was impossible to trade "roman" techs to other barbarians, but for the human player, who is able to overcome their distaste for such civilized knowledge it is quite easy to get the techs they want, which doesn't make much sense. It seems that by reducing the value the AI places on it, it prevents them from trying to obtain it, but conversely, means that they treat it as relatively worthless when you ask for it as well, unless you are in the same 'flavor group' where it seems to be valued correctly.

I'm sure with the expertise and multiple runs through the scenarios, though, we can come up with a good base of evidence to help out.

On the subject of tech flavors:

In the Turk game, we [as the Turks (Arab tree)] researched Norse Traditions. Our neighbors are the Kievan Rus, who start with Norse Traditions. When we wanted to buy Seafaring, I checked and the Rus didn't have it to sell. On the same turn, I bought Seafaring, and found I couldn't trade it to the Rus. The Rus should not be able to complete researching a tech on our turn, so what happened?

Is there a "rule" that civs can't trade techs from outside their "flavor"? Has anyone seen a contrary example?

On a slightly different tack:

The importance of a second tree in this scenario, with the fluctuating tech prices is huge. The Abbasids game, one of the few which didn't go for a second tree is stuck in a state of tech stagnation and short of good buildings for the major cities. I'm sure someone else can do a better assessment of this than me, but the basic flow of development seems somewhat hampered (as compared with the Franks game for example).

I think there's two different issues involved here. First is *whether* a tech can be traded.

What is definitely intended is that the flavor of an AI civ is used to modify how likely that civ is to trade you items

This can't be right, since there's never any "likely" involved when trading - an item is either available to put on the trading table or it isn't. From what I've been able to gather so far, if *neither* civ in a diplomatic negotiation has flavor X, they cannot trade techs of flavor X. I'm pretty sure on this, actually. T_McC's post matches this, since he was trying to trade Seafaring, and neither the Turks (Arab flavor) nor the Rus (Byzantine flavor) have the Norse flavor. If *at least* one civ has a flavor matching the tech's flavor, it can be traded.

Of course the "untradeable" flag overrides everything above.


The second issue is pricing when a tech *is* available to trade. I erred earlier; the 125 gold purchase value was for Seafaring (I edited the above post to fix that); loading the pre-turn 990 AD save for the Byzantines and checking, the price for Smithing is about 250 gold. This jells with the Seafaring result; the base tech cost of Smithing is twice that of Seafaring, so whatever's happening to either tech is happening to both.

I can't get the standard tech devaluation equation to give anything close to what I observed, though.

MM*DM*(COST/10) *[1 - N/(CL*1.75)]

MM = map modifier = 200
DM = difficulty modifier = 2.5
COST = from editor = 30
N = civs that know tech = 2
CL = civs left in the game = 18 logically, 3 if it only includes civs with Norse flavor, perhaps something else

Smithing's raw beaker cost (MM*DM*COST/10) is 200 * 2.5 * 30 / 10 = 1500. To get that to drop all the way to around 250 with just the devaluation equation is impossible. N would have to be greater than CL, about 1.5 times it, which is impossible.

So there's something else at work here, though the devaluation equation may play a part...

I was thinking about T-Hawk's discussion of the devaluation formula, and I don't profess to be an expert, but shouldn't that also influence the cost to research yourself? AFAIK, your own research cost is affected by the number of other civs that have the tech, although I'm not positive it's the same formula. Regardless, I pulled up the save from our Cordovan game, right before I started a round of trading, as we had multiple techs become available during that turn, and so should give us lots of data.

All this info is taken from the Cordovan game, during the 975AD turn (or the following turn for Jihad, when Abbasids and Turks discovered it, and the final turn, 1005AD, for Smithing when it broke). My base turns-to-tech were at 60% science, which yielded an even 30 beakers per turn.



The biggest difference is the Research/Buy ratio in the last column. You can see that for the "normal" techs, they are pretty close, with about a 15% discount for self-research, which sounds about right for a non-monopoly tech. But the Viking techs are way out of balance, with purchasing being 3-5 times cheaper than research, even (in the case of Smithing) at the Monopoly price. Jihad, which is from our 'native' flavor, is closer to a normal tech, although there is not a dramatic discount in research once 2 civs discovered it, it only shaved one turn off. (Actually, in turn 980, the turns to complete dropped to 22, but I had put one turn into it at 30). So I don't think the devaluation is calculating off of the number of 'flavor' civs, or the fact that 2/3s of them got it that turn would have had a dramatic affect on the price.

Anyway, I don't pretend to be able to explain all these, but I can definitely state that whatever is affecting the low trade cost for non-flavor techs does not seem to have the same effect on self-research cost.

BTW - to T-Hawk, hope you are enjoying your day!